No wonder he disabled comments on his videos

[EverEvolvingExotics]

I think this is a great thread. I try to remain neutral on forums. They are meant to serve as a place for everyone all of knowledge and experience levels to share and learn. Everyone needs to start somewhere and will grow with time and experience. Animal husbandry will always be evolving and adapting as individuals try new techniques, some will work and others will fail miserably. I personally find it intriguing to watch a breeder be able to effortlessly cut eggs in the manner he sees fit. I wouldn't be able to try it out on MY first clutch, but that's just me. I guess what I'm trying to say is to read, watch, share, and learn, then perform the techniques you are comfortable and agree with. This method has always worked for me.

[Twist]

Jay has quite a lot of videos like this, and I've always thought it would be an extremely fruitful experience if I could work with him for even just a few days with his retics. he also has a large business it seems, so he's got to be making money from sales. It doesn't bother me the least that he pulls them out of their eggs after cutting. It reduces the chance of having a baby snake drown in the amniotic fluid because of an undeveloped egg tooth, which happens apparently. More power to him for trying to minimize egg loss. That's my view on the situation.

[Skiploder]

I think it's probably more acceptable due to the fact that they're retics... snakes that are bulldozers when eating. They don't stress easily and seem to keep eating no matter what. They also lay huge clutches, so if one or two don't make it, you still have a lot left over.

If you were to do that with ball pythons (pulling them out/touching/messing with while in the eggs), who are notorious for getting stressed easily and going off of feed... some don't even like to eat when you haven't messed with them at all... you might see more problems.

Yes, they ARE retics and not bps in the video, but posting a video where the guy seems to show no care for the snakes, and can't even tell you what the genes are in the animals, on a website dedicated primarily to bps, where many of us are passionate about breeding for the love of the animal, and not just for $$$... we're bound to see some outlash.

People cut ball python eggs all the time.

All the time.

And yes, many of them are just as dedicated and passionate about their animals as the newbies who have never heard of the practice and therefore rush to condemn it.

Sometimes the best view isn't from the saddle of a high horse...........

[akaangela]

I have watched this guy before. I was horrified that anyone would treat his babies like this. I would NEVER EVER do this to one of mine.

That said the man obviously has done it many times. If he killed his babies doing it he would stop. He also made a few points here that I must point out. First he said (repeatedly) that he was cutting the eggs because they had such a thick skin. That is a very real fear. Second he also pointed out he didn't like to "fight" a baby if it didn't want to come out. I don't do these kinds of snakes but he was obviously excited and acted like these where high end morphs. I would think if any harm came to the babies and they died he would have to stop or he wouldn't make any money or get any new morphs.

I am a novice when it comes to eggs. I don't have the experience to cut like this guy does. The way he was cutting I was surprised he didn't cut any of the babies. That alone showed me he has done this many many times. I also got the feeling (and I am not sure why) that he wasn't being as rough as it looked. None of the babies where moving much after he cut them and that worried me. To me I would have to look at his mortality rate before I said I wouldn't ever buy from him.

I cringe every time I watch one of his clips. Maybe he knows something I don't. LOL that is a VERY real possibility. I only have maybe 8 eggs a year and he has 100's he deals with all the time so I would say (grudging) that they are his animals and he can do with them as he wants. I also have to admit he had some very nice babies in those eggs.

[Freakie_frog]

I can't speak to retics or Jays ability's. I can only speak for myself an my experiences having cut a couple hundred eggs over the last couple of years I can tell you that baby snakes are far more hardy that we give them credit for. I don't think Jay is really endangering his animals in any way. He's far more comfortable with messing with babies in the egg than I am but that's just my personal comfort, I know of and have seen fellow do things with eggs that make my stomach do flips.

Bashing Jay here isn't going to help or hurt him,us, or the reptile community as a whole. My suggestion is to call or email Jay and ask him why he does it that way (don't be a tool about it) but take this chance to learn something for someone is 15+ years experience breeding..

Ok back to your coffee.

[iCandiBallPythons]

I can't speak to retics or Jays ability's. I can only speak for myself an my experiences having cut a couple hundred eggs over the last couple of years I can tell you that baby snakes are far more hardy that we give them credit for. I don't think Jay is really endangering his animals in any way. He's far more comfortable with messing with babies in the egg than I am but that's just my personal comfort, I know of and have seen fellow do things with eggs that make my stomach do flips.

Bashing Jay here isn't going to help or hurt him,us, or the reptile community as a whole. My suggestion is to call or email Jay and ask him why he does it that way (don't be a tool about it) but take this chance to learn something for someone is 15+ years experience breeding..

Ok back to your coffee.

Ed you are right on the money, great post btw but what you suggested would be the common sense thing for people to do, its much easier for most to jump a bandwagon here. I guess some people would say im a sadist if I say I typically cut eggs 10 days early or even earlier and they hatch fine, when I know people that cut at day 30 with no complications

[MasonC2K]

My problem with the guy is more to do with his attitude. His tone of voice has always sounded arrogant to me. I don't judge what he does. I am not qualified. But I do think I can judge his presentation. He just comes off as a grade A dbag when he talks.

My 2 cents.

[adamjeffery]

My problem with the guy is more to do with his attitude. His tone of voice has always sounded arrogant to me. I don't judge what he does. I am not qualified. But I do think I can judge his presentation. He just comes off as a grade A dbag when he talks.

My 2 cents.

im not sure that even i can disagree with that one...lol
adam jeffery

[Mike Cavanaugh]

It amazes me how people can be so quick to judge... often when they have little to no personal experience... Then those same people don't understand why more videos aren't posted.

[Anatopism]

People cut ball python eggs all the time.

All the time.

And yes, many of them are just as dedicated and passionate about their animals as the newbies who have never heard of the practice and therefore rush to condemn it.

Sometimes the best view isn't from the saddle of a high horse...........

I never said anything about cutting the eggs. Cutting the eggs has an actual function of helping the snakes exit on their own terms, without risk of drowning. I also never said he doesn't know what he's talking about, nor that he doesn't produce quality snakes. All of my posts were describing what seems and comes across as lack of care - and yes, this is due partially to lack of experience, but also because I've seen plenty of other videos and talked to other breeders who do have lots of experience, that go through a lot of effort to ensure the health/safety of their babies.

Again, clarifying, never said he doesn't know what he's doing, but simply as MasonC2k stated, it's more in the presentation. Videos like this present the idea that it's easy to just slice the eggs open and pull the snakes out, and to "newcomers" to the breeding scene, can give a false impression of how to properly do what he's doing in the video. I know it is everybody's personal responsibility to do research on proper techniques, but it would be nice if there were videos with a disclaimer or a more in depth explanation about the techniques that do seem more 'rough' to the less experienced. Being in the 'public eye' of snake breeding puts some level of responsibility on the more experienced, when it comes to the health and safety of another living creature.

If this is a forum about learning and exploring the husbandry requirements of snakes/ball pythons, these "more experienced" breeders should be taking the time to explain why this practice is OK and not using the "you are wrong because you're ignorant and I'm right because I say so" approach. These are emotional responses to a video that shows techniques that even other established breeders don't necessarily practice, and just because somebody "has more internet experience than real life experience" does not invalidate an emotional reaction. It is fine to defend prehistoric pets, or anybody you feel is being wrongfully judged, but do so in a way that is informative and not just "because I know more than you".

Just because the animals are hardier than expected and seem to come out fine does not inherently make it right. Because people disagree with it doesn't make it wrong. At the same time, it is not wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or disagree with the practice just because some people haven't seen any negative consequences.

My problem with the guy is more to do with his attitude. His tone of voice has always sounded arrogant to me. I don't judge what he does. I am not qualified. But I do think I can judge his presentation.