So ... How far do we go?

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I've been thinking of posting something like this for awhile, but this thread really got me thinking ...

How far do we go as far as the artificial manipulation of ball pythons in a captive breeding situation?

... By that I mean:

Morphs are now commonly accepted and embraced, but I believe there was a time when even they were viewed as "unnatural." Many of those who kept reptiles did so for the joy of seeing something very natural, very unchanged by man, in a captive setting, and of reproducing that animal in a manner as close to nature as possible. Deliberate propagation of a mutation that would be unlikely to survive in the wild would be viewed by such keepers as an anathema to their goals. ... To my knowledge, many raptor breeders still feel this way.

Now, clearly the modern tide of reptile keeping is towards "morphs, morphs, morphs," and as much artificial selection for the BEST quality of said morphs as possible. We are trending more towards what domestic animal breeders do, with setting an end-goal with self imposed standards and breeding towards that. There is no external artificial manipulation on a molecular level, but we certainly do artificially select. It's survival of the prettiest.

... My question is, how artificial do we get with all of this? What level of manipulation do we as reptile keepers tolerate, and at what point do we say, "Nope, this is just too weird?" (Or "wrong," if that's your feeling?)

We have no problem manipulating the environment of the animals to get them to cycle; that's just mimicking their natural habitat. ... What about direct hormonal manipulations? Would you be willing to use hormone injections to cycle your females? ... It's par for the course in cattle. (I think it might be commonplace in frog breeding, too ..?)

If you're okay with that, what about artificial insemination? (Or maybe you're okay with AI, but not hormone cycling.) It's probably never going to happen, but if you could go onto NERD's website and buy a straw of banana Enchi soul sucker semen ... Would you? What about just for your own collection, to ensure adequate mating? (Note, live cover is actually usually more effective than AI )

... Then what about on a molecular level? Would you do a DNA test to see if your 50% possible het female actually carried the gene? Or is that "cheating?"

Would you buy a GFP (green flourescent protein), glow in the dark ball python? (... I finally put a blacklight on my GFP axolotl's tank -- I gotta say, it IS pretty cool!)

Or, do you think we've reached the pinnacle of our artificial manipulation, and any more is overkill?

[bubblz]

Just my opinion but,.. keep it simple and leave AIs, Injections and anything else that's too extra out,.. it's not worth it. Quit trying to make Superman piss Kriptonite.

[LotsaBalls]

i would buy/breed a glow in the dark ball python spider monkey.
PS I'll take that straw also.

[wolfy-hound]

AI is only breeding what already exists, just not having to move the male about to various females. I see nothing wrong with it. It would be a safer way to do a breeding loan, since you would not have to ship out the male or female, nor risk breaking a good quarentine just to get a breeder in for breeding season. It would also eliminate people stealing the shipped animal by either claiming it was a permenent loan, "misunderstanding" who was to be bred, etc.

I don't see breeding morph with morph as any more "unnatural" than breeding normal to normal. Saying that breeding originally was 'as if in the wild' is completely false, as the owners are still choosing which of their normals they purchase and put together. That is every bit as unnatural, since the snakes did not roam about in the open, available to be preyed upon or killed through natural selection, then choosing their mates and taking their chances with parasites etc.

DNA testing to see if your het is actually a het is not changing anything in the animal. What could possibly be wrong with that? It's just like the most trustworthy paperwork in the world. Instead of wondering if the animal carries albino, you can DNA test to see for certain. There are DNA tests for various dog breeds, why not be able to test to see if a snake is a particular "breed" or het?

What if a glow-in-the-dark python was discovered in the wild? Would that be "unnatural" even though it occured in the wild? All the current morphs occured in the wild, but they are somehow "unnatural" but something else is not, simply because it occured in captive breeding? Or are you referring to actual genetic manipulation, i.e. adding special non-BP genes to a BP in order to get a glow-in-the-dark python?

Since there will always be normal non-morph BPs available, I don't know why anyone who doesn't like morphs would object. Someone who believes ONLY normal BPs are okay to own shouldn't even object to glowy BPs, since they can simply choose not to own one, or to breed any. They can keep their own normals and not buy glowy, or not buy albinos. What does it truly hurt a person who wants only normals that morphs or genetically altered animals exist for other people?

I personally don't like basset hounds. But I don't object to them existing, to people breeding them, or even to people who say they think basset hounds are the best dogs EVER. I simply don't own one. I don't see why people who dislike morphs or whatever exists in the future can't do the same thing.

[KingPythons]

I believe it would cost 2x more to keep sperm then BP's and 2x more to buy it and another 2x on AI your ball python if you've never done it(if it's even possible).

[LotsaBalls]

I believe it would cost 2x more to keep sperm then BP's and 2x more to buy it and another 2x on AI your ball python if you've never done it(if it's even possible).

You just freeze it. Cheap. All you do is squirt it inside the female at about the right time. Getting the female to cycle might be more difficult but I'm sure not to hard.
Sly Fox said it good; "Let's go all the way"

[bubblz]

You can't just throw collected semen in your freezer and expect it to be viable when you're ready for it. Unless you have your own liquid nitrogen set up for freezing and storing,.. good luck with that. Other than that,.. you would have to pay someone to collect, freeze, store and or implant it for you when the female is ready.

It's not cheap for most domestic animals,.. so I don't even want to know what the price would be for exotics.

As for just squirting it inside the female,.. I hope you know quite a bit about Anatomy before you go poking and squirting in the wrong place.

[LotsaBalls]

Human sperm from a sperm bank is only $300, storage for six months $200. Cheaper than a spinnerblast. No I'm not a geneticist or a doctor. I'm not "planning" on doing this, just commenting that if it was an option I would.

[KingPythons]

I think I'm cool on freezing sperm and sitting it right next to some steaks in my freezer lol just saying. Also, Im not trying to make love to my animals neither lol just saying.

[bubblz]

And I just commented that for me it wouldn't be worth it and why.
But you didn't add the price of the sperm for what ever the morph maybe, shipping and how ever many AIs you need to get the job done.
Since snakes are usually paired together more than once. Not all AIs take on the first try some need to be redone how ever many times.

Not to mention if it doesn't take, you don't know if any was retained or not so,.. then what? Money wasted or try again,.. it just seems easier to have snakes you need on hand to make what you want.