Why isn't probing an exact science?

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I just don't get it. Recently I went to purchase 3 normal established breeder females from a trusted friend. As always I probed them just to make sure. 2 of them obviously probed female with the properly sized probe only going about 5 scales deep. The third probed much further then that... Going at least 9. My friend was totally confused by that because she knew without any doubt that that particular snake had laid good eggs for her multiple times. Every known male ball python baby, sub adult, and adult I have ever (literally over a hundred) "popped", I have been able to get at least 1 hemiphene to pop out. I could NOT get one to pop out on this snake. I ended up not getting it.

Well then almost the same thing happened again... Went to buy another established breeder female. This time it was a beautiful 2,000 gram granite girl. The reputable guy I was buying her from said she has laid for him 3 years in a row. At 2,000 grams she is actually pretty skinny right now from recently laying eggs.

I probed her and the right side obviously probed female barely going 5 scales But then the left side probed 8 or 9 scales deep. She is a big girl so 9 scales deep is almost half of the probe! Again I was unable to get any hemiphene to pop. I ended up getting her because I believed him. He has since sent me a picture of her sitting on her eggs!

Today I probed and popped my entire collection. I was able to pop at least 1 hemiphene on all of the males pretty easily. Couldn't get any hemiphenes to pop out on any of the known girls. then I probed. All of the males probed nice and deep like a male should. Probed all of my females and they all probed nice and short like they should... Except one!

One of my established breeder females probed like a male! Both sides went about 9 to 10 scales deep! Now I know for a FACT that this girl has laid for me two years in a row.

More info: it isnt user error! I am using a properly sized ball tip probe. I am not pushing with ANY pressure. All I do is slide it in and twist gently till it stops. Usually there is a clear difference between the girls and the boys. With the girls the probe goes a few scales deep then stops immediately when it hits what feels like a wall. The males go much deeper and when it stops, the hemiphene stretches a little so it has a totally different feel to it.

My established breeder female probes exactly like a male... When the probe stops it even stops like a male. Why is this when she has already proven to be a properly functioning female?

So what is the deal? Does it mean that someone previously probed them too hard breaking thru the wall? I honestly find that hard to believe on three different snakes. Plus I thought I read somewhere that if that ever happened it damaged them and they wouldn't be able to breed?

[sho220]

So what is the deal? Does it mean that someone previously probed them too hard breaking thru the wall? I honestly find that hard to believe on three different snakes. Plus I thought I read somewhere that if that ever happened it damaged them and they wouldn't be able to breed?

That was my first thought. It may just be naturally occuring physiological differences. <<< I just made that up so it's probably not correct.

This is why I don't trust probing.

[PitOnTheProwl]

I am not any help here but I want to keep up to date on this post

[Simplex]

This is my new must watch post... 1 male and 4 females... Kinda relying on my boy being a boy and not a long probbing girl

[Mike Cavanaugh]

.

This is why I don't trust probing.

yeah I am starting to think with adults there really isn't a way of knowing for sure until reproduction occurs... Although to this moment I don't think I have come across a male that I could not "pop" a hemiphene out...

[rabernet]

If only one side probed deep, then I would think someone probed too hard, and there's no reason why she still can't produced. That's why when I used to probe, I'd always probe both sides.

I can't remember the last time I've probed a ball python. In fact, I'd have to go hunting to find my probes at this point. I pop everything, even adults. I've never had a problem popping adults, in fact, in some cases, I even find them easier to pop than juvies.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

What Robin said -- AFAIK, if a someone probed her too deep and perforated her cloacal outpouching, I don't believe it ever grows over and so she will forever probe deep on that side. That's why (again, to reiterate Robin's post) it's always recommended to probe both sides. I seem to recall reading somewhere that that left side of the snake is less reliable and more apt to be perforated, because most people are right handed and may only probe the left side.

I do still probe larger ball pythons. I just don't trust myself to pop reliably. Maybe I just don't squeeze hard enough, or in the right place, or maybe I'm just more comfortable probing than popping since I've been doing it for much longer ... I dunno. I do know that I have one or two known males who are consistently very difficult to evert, so I just don't completely trust my popping abilities to double-check sexes on snakes I'm buying or selling. (And yes, I have been shown how to do it multiple times in person, and I can say I can probably do it reliably about 75% of the time ... But that 25% is the kicker!)

I have heard many say that they believe that popping in ball pythons is more reliable than probing. Animals do have natural variation, and so I think it's entirely conceivable that a female, even a heretofore un-probed female, could probe to a seemingly "male" depth; similarly I would imagine you could have a "short" male. If you see hemipenes, though, it's gotta be a boy. ... And in theory, if you pop properly and DON'T see them, it's gotta be a girl ... I just don't trust myself that it isn't just a really strong boy who doesn't feel like showing 'em

I do think that there's some truth to the idea that it isn't "proven" until it's proven, though. I had a "male" blood python who flashed "his" hemipenes at me constantly lay eggs one day ... Granted, balls aren't bloods, and I think in this species if you see what you think are penes it's probably safe to call "male." (If anyone has experience to the contrary, though, please let me know!) However, even with all the probing and popping in the world, I still don't know if you can definitively call a ball a female until she's produced eggs ...

Which could bring up another topic of debate (maybe better suited for the business section?): can you truly "guarantee" sex of a female ball python?

[sho220]

Which could bring up another topic of debate (maybe better suited for the business section?): can you truly "guarantee" sex of a female ball python?

Only after you personally witness her laying eggs...

[Blue Apple Herps]

Yes, could be injury where someone probed too deep and hard.

But there are also variances from snake to snake. That's with any organism really. There are always exceptions to rules, especially when dealing with animals.

[slackerz]

this is new favorite thread for me..and it also happened to me,female proven probed like a male..

and for blood,its always happen to us here most of WC female will flash something look like hemipenes,but when probe,they are female..

hope can hear from expert about this issue.