Genetics confusion

[OhhWatALoser]

Ok....this is MY understanding of how this terminology is typically used in the ball python morph world.

The term "het albino" is just a shortened version of "heterozygous for albino".

Therefore, the term "het lesser" would have the same connotation, "heterozygous for lesser".

And given the utter confusion on the matter, no matter which side of the argument a person is on, why should "het" be used in reference to lessers (and other dom/co-dom morphs) in the first place? Applying the term "het" in such a redundant fashion IS confusing. You don't call an albino a "super albino" or a "homo albino". It's just an albino.

The terminology we typically use isn't "correct" on many accounts (co-dom vs incomplete dom), but majority of people using it makes it correct now doesn't it? I see this as another case. Technically Het for Albino is not correct at all, it is het albino. Heterozygous is an adjective. Its like saying "My snake is a pretty for albino" vs "My snake is a pretty albino"

We take it as them meaning the same thing (we both agree on that), but why use the funny sounding long version? Popularity I guess. I understand none of us here started using it that way and many people say it but still..... to me it seem we are implying het means something other than heterozygous. I see that as just complicating things for those who want to learn what is actually going on. No i'm not going to go to a show and sell my het lessers, its not the popular terminology but it doesn't make het lesser incorrect.

I'm not on a mission to "be right", I would just like to see this stuff get easier instead of more complicated. Theres hardly a difference between the genotype names and phenotype names we are calling them in this thread.

Heres a translator....
obviously theres a few odds balls like lucys and what not, but that sums up most of them. They don't have to be separate things and we can still keep the short phenotype names, but popular terminology seems to be heading toward them being separate and I see that causing more confusion.

[JLC]

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'M the one who is confused. But I don't see these arguments making things simpler. It just seems to muddy the water, to me.

The whole subject of "het lessers" was brought up when someone said they get frustrated at the fact that lessers aren't called hets. ....?? Why is that frustrating? I don't know. I tried to explain why I think it would be MORE confusing to call them "het lessers".

I'm not a scientist. I took honors level science classes in high school, but they were all chemistry and physics...not biology. None since then. I'm just going by the COMMON TERMINOLOGY in the ball python world.

Even you said in your explanation that you won't be calling lessers "het lessers"....because it's confusing. That's all I was wanting to get across....that there's no reason to use such terminology.

I realize the terminology isn't always "correct"...but I'm not trying to help anyone pass a science exam...I just want to help folks understand what is meant when joe-bob-breeder says something.

I do believe that the closer we can ALL get to being accurate in our terminology, the better chance we all have of being on the same page all the time....however, due to the nature of the subject, I believe you quickly get to a point of causing MORE confusion by insisting on scientifically accurate language instead of helping.

And if anything in anything I've posted here comes across as angry or upset...I'm not. Not in the least. I think everyone here is trying their best to communicate what they think is right. But I think maybe each of us has a different target for what is "right".....you're hitting yours...I'm hitting mine...but we each think the other is missing it.

I don't know. I've said all I can say on the matter. The whole thread has become far more confusing than it started out and I don't think anything else I say can fix that at this point.

[pbjtime8908]

seeing as im the guy who made the original comment that lesser is not a "het" and inadvertently led to this super long and mostly confusing thread, id like to say that i have actually learned a thing or two in this thread.

before i made my post i was unaware of all of whats been said here and had only ever seen the laymans terms used. i am a newbie and i have made what would probably termed a newbie mistake when talking genetics but im now a little more educated.

no one person here made it super clear to me in one post on how this actually worked, it was a combination of what everyone said that helped me better understand a super confusing topic. i was never very good at science and definitely have forgotten most of it from school so i had no idea most of the things that are generally accepted by the majority are either wrong, shortened, or slightly off from the technical definition of things.

so thank you to everyone who made me a tad smarter and i hope that all the other newbs who read this thread can come away with a better understanding of how things in this hobby actually work.

[Jessica Loesch]

The terminology we typically use isn't "correct" on many accounts (co-dom vs incomplete dom), but majority of people using it makes it correct now doesn't it? I see this as another case. Technically Het for Albino is not correct at all, it is het albino. Heterozygous is an adjective. Its like saying "My snake is a pretty for albino" vs "My snake is a pretty albino"

We take it as them meaning the same thing (we both agree on that), but why use the funny sounding long version? Popularity I guess. I understand none of us here started using it that way and many people say it but still..... to me it seem we are implying het means something other than heterozygous. I see that as just complicating things for those who want to learn what is actually going on. No i'm not going to go to a show and sell my het lessers, its not the popular terminology but it doesn't make het lesser incorrect.

I'm not on a mission to "be right", I would just like to see this stuff get easier instead of more complicated. Theres hardly a difference between the genotype names and phenotype names we are calling them in this thread.

Heres a translator....
obviously theres a few odds balls like lucys and what not, but that sums up most of them. They don't have to be separate things and we can still keep the short phenotype names, but popular terminology seems to be heading toward them being separate and I see that causing more confusion.

exactly what i was getting at, and thank you!

[paulh]

(snip)The whole subject of "het lessers" was brought up when someone said they get frustrated at the fact that lessers aren't called hets. ....?? Why is that frustrating? (snip)

That someone was me.

I am not frustrated that lessers aren't called hets. I am frustrated by the claim that lessers can not be genotypically heterozygous. And that NO creature with a dominant or codominant mutant gene paired with a normal gene can be genotypically heterozygous.

"Het albino" is a genotype that produces a normal phenotype. "Het lesser" is a genotype that produces a lesser or lesser platinum phenotype. Homozygous lesser is a genotype that produces a blue-eyed white phenotype.

[alkibp]

This thread is helping me understand genetics in a whole different light.

This whole time, up until now, I believed "Heterozygous" or "Het" could only be used to describe Recessive Genetics.

I am beginning to understand that "technically", my Lesser Platinum is a Heterozygous Lesser Platinum. It would be a Homozygous Lesser Platinum if was in "Super Form" or a "Super Lesser".

In common ball python terminology, we leave the "Het" part off of co-doms like Lesser Platinum so that we can make recessive genes easier to understand or distinguish, especially for beginners.

So, am I on the right track here people? Any thoughts?

I am sure I still have much to learn in the ways of the Jed... er, Breeder Arts.

[OhhWatALoser]

This whole time, up until now, I believed "Heterozygous" or "Het" could only be used to describe Recessive Genetics.

This is one of the common misconceptions I would like to see cleared up.

In common ball python terminology, we leave the "Het" part off of co-doms like Lesser Platinum so that we can make recessive genes easier to understand or distinguish, especially for beginners.

I personally think its laziness dropping unneeded words off, I personally don't want to say heterozygous lesser platinum over and over, lesser is easier. At the same time I think it screws new people up more than it helps, but you wanna talk snake lingo you gotta learn. Every hobby I'm into is the same way, different lingos.

And yes your on the right track now.

[JulieInNJ]

This thread is helping me understand genetics in a whole different light.

This whole time, up until now, I believed "Heterozygous" or "Het" could only be used to describe Recessive Genetics.

I am beginning to understand that "technically", my Lesser Platinum is a Heterozygous Lesser Platinum. It would be a Homozygous Lesser Platinum if was in "Super Form" or a "Super Lesser".

In common ball python terminology, we leave the "Het" part off of co-doms like Lesser Platinum so that we can make recessive genes easier to understand or distinguish, especially for beginners.

So, am I on the right track here people? Any thoughts?

I am sure I still have much to learn in the ways of the Jed... er, Breeder Arts.

This is exactly the way I was thinking. I, too, have learned a great deal!

[paulh]

This thread is helping me understand genetics in a whole different light.

This whole time, up until now, I believed "Heterozygous" or "Het" could only be used to describe Recessive Genetics.

I am beginning to understand that "technically", my Lesser Platinum is a Heterozygous Lesser Platinum. It would be a Homozygous Lesser Platinum if was in "Super Form" or a "Super Lesser".

In common ball python terminology, we leave the "Het" part off of co-doms like Lesser Platinum so that we can make recessive genes easier to understand or distinguish, especially for beginners.

So, am I on the right track here people? Any thoughts?

I am sure I still have much to learn in the ways of the Jed... er, Breeder Arts.

You are on the right track.

If I had a dollar for every herper web site that says "Heterozygous" or "Het" can only be used to describe Recessive Genetics, I could buy a pied ball python and have money left over. It's so bad that I tend to say that a snake has a lesser mutant gene paired with a normal gene instead of calling it a het lesser.

IMO, we use "lesser" rather than "het lesser" because it is the phenotype name, and we can get the genotype from the phenotype. That is true for all codominant mutant genes. "Het lesser" is correct useage for the genotype, though.

Super _____ (fill in the blank) is just herper slang for homozygous _____ . Where the _____ mutant is codominant to the normal gene. "Super" has no standing in standard genetics, as taught in high school and university genetics courses.

With dominant mutant genes, you can't tell the homozygous mutant animals from the heterozygous animals. That makes homozygous and heterozygous just as useful with dominant mutants as with recessive mutants. It's just that dominant mutant genes are much less common in reptiles than recessive and codominant mutants are.

[L2.BP.Plox]

The scientific community and the snake community will never agree on this matter.
The snake community re-defined terminology, for genetics, to make things easier to explain and to be understood.
The scientific community is only trying to point out the differences between actual terminology and the colloquial terminology of the snake world.