BG, I guess your attempt at calling out certain people to argue with you has failed, so now you're going to call it quits... I think Robyn has said all he needed to say about this subject on another forum, which I will link below. Mods, if this doesn't agree with the TOS, feel free to delete.

Post #234 in this thread at the BLBC: http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=29653

Quote Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR View Post
Michigan- talk about breeders that rip off customers, that is fine. Do it all day long, but don't lump PE in that group, or make such insinuations, that is wrong. There are plenty of scumbags in the reptile industry, but our breeding has nothing to do with that.

Anthony- I know you support us, and I appreciate that : )

But I can't control what other folks are doing, or not doing, and I don't have any responsibility for what folks were doing, or not doing, with Deserts before we got them. I know that since we have started working with them, interest has exploded. It has only been a few seasons.

I know that ten years ago, I would have been thrilled to see a virgin female breed by the fifth year. In 2011, folks get all uptight if a female doesn't breed by the second or third year.

This conversation/thread is all over the place, literally. Here, BP.net, KS.com, I don't remember what was written where. Here is my recap of thoughts : )

None of the females that we received with our first group of Deserts are ever likely to breed. They might not even break 1400 grams. Leave it at that.

The females that we have hatched out here at Pro Exotics have grown and done fantastically. Beautiful, strong, great weight females. In the spring of 2011, some anonymous douchebag claimed that all Desert females stayed small and scrawny. I posted pics of two of our growing females that were 1500 and 1700 grams.

Those females, a few months later, are now 2200+ grams. They continue to thrive and grow. They are the largest Desert females that we have.

They have been copping, and follicle size is nice, 12-15mm. That is prime time.

I am confident that they will continue to thrive, and that they will breed. We get eggs every month of the year. All females don't cycle in the same 2 months, it is spread out. There is nothing I can do to "force" them to hurry up.

So why does it need 2 more years to prove out? I guess number one because it has already been proven, but folks want "more". Ok.

You yourself wanted some type of magic guarantee deal. Ok. I offered you that. Do you also want to stipulate that the proof must come within 3 months? Come on : )

Guys like Marc Bailey, Dan Wolfe, and some dude named Ralph Davis are working with Deserts, but are a year or two behind us. Their males have been doing amazing things. But I am also excited to see what their females do. Don't you want to give them time to get females up to size and breeding?

I really don't understand the whole "prove it now or it doesn't exist" philosophy. Breeding snakes seemed WAY harder in 1995 than it is now, just by the development of knowledge and technique. I think folks need to gain some time perspective : )

As for other breeders that have gotten clutches but haven't posted pictures here. So what? Online forums are for folks that like online forums. Lots of breeders and hobbyists don't participate online, and not only do they not care what online folks are saying "about them", they don't even know it exists. That's fine, I totally understand. I have a hard time myself just staying moderately current with the handful of Ball python forums, much less monitors, uros, ratsnakes, gilas, boas, Facebook and now Google+. Ugh.

Larry's conversation with the Desert breeder that uses no supplemental heat and got a couple of clutches? Apparently that was a casual conversation and the guy mentioned his Desert clutches. He DIDN'T EVEN KNOW there was discussion about Desert females.

This is a great place to hang out, post, and stay in touch with other breeders, as well as the haps, but LOTS of stuff exists outside of this site, and lots of reptile stuff happens off line altogether.

Just because my mom won't get on Facebook doesn't mean she isn't real : )

If our Desert females didn't grow, I would be concerned. If they dropped dead, I would be concerned. I have seen small females slug out, that gave me concern, and we pushed our target breeding weight to 2000+ grams. Ok. I have G Stripe females, Pied females, and various combo females that haven't bred, yet are 5 or 6 years old. That doesn't really give me a lot of concern either, that is the variability of individuals in a breeding group.

We have a "weird" Pastel female that took 7 or 8 years to finally get to size, much less breed, and now she has thrown clutches 3 out of 5 years. The "weird" part hasn't really come through yet, but that isn't the point there : )

I am super anxious to breed a Desert female, for sure. I'll be disappointed if it doesn't happen here in house in 2011. But if threads like this didn't exist, I wouldn't give it much more thought other than "try again for 2012".

Mike Powell beat us to breeding Desert females, the KS.com guy did as well. Marc, Dan and Ralph might all beat us there. That's fine, they are all great breeders.

I am confident it will happen. Females look too strong, too healthy, and too cooperative not to throw good eggs. Plus, it has been done before.

I know we will breed the Desert females successfully before we breed the Boelen's females, and we have been trying to do those for 15 years. Talk about frustrating! (and my number one fave python : )

You should take me up on that offer Anthony, the project is awesome and we continue to hatch out super cool combos with them!
I'd be willing to give it another couple of years before agreeing to a final verdict on this subject. However, it is good to be cautious on Desert females at this point considering the lack of evidence.