The (Drama FREE) Desert Thread. A different Perspective.

[The Hedgehog]

After reading the Bush-League thread, (Yes all 20 pages) I think it would be good to offer a different perspective on the Desert subject:

First, it's awesome to see a hobby form a community such as this one. It's amazing to me that people who are basically "competing" against one another, for business, are willing to help share information to help move the hobby in a better direction for the future. THAT IS COOL.

Second, it's even more awesome to see those people share the information they have, and basically use the Scientific Method we all learned in grade school to form theories and test them. Where else are you going to see that? I haven't seen that before from any other type of hobby community, and we all share a unique thing.

Third, I think everyone needs to take a step back and look at it this way: We are all dealing with GENETICS. They are not cut and dry. Just because one way works with one set of snakes, doesn't mean that's how it works with others. Just because the outside of the snake may vary, doesn't mean that they don't have other slight changes going on in their genes. I mean we all know about Spiders and the "wobble", Carmels and the "Kinks", and whatever other morphs may have problems.

Genetics are very finicky and we should all know that. Just look at the odds when breeding two different morphs together. You don't always get what you expect, do you? What the breeders are doing would take thousands of years to happen in the wild, if at all. I'm grateful that we even have breeders who have the patience to help push this hobby forward even further. The fact that you have people who don't have degrees in advanced molecular biology, can figure out that maybe all that's needed to produce viable eggs is a temperature change is crazy awesome.

My whole point of this thread, is that I'm all for finding out if Desert Females can lay viable clutches of eggs. However I don't think that "Stirring the Pot" is the right way to do it. Accusing big time breeders who have their name and reputation on the line, of selling to people knowing an animal won't breed is not only unfair to them, but also harming the community. This whole community is built on trust and honesty. There's a reason for the BOI forums, and that's to weed out the people who don't want to play be the unspoken rules and help this community grow.



Take this thread how you want, but this community as a whole is simply put "AMAZING". Just my

Also, please leave the drama out of this thread. If you are coming in here to start it, please think before you hit the "Reply" button. This is a post to thank everyone who is patient and who want to contribute to the community in a positive manner.

[JLC]

My whole point of this thread, is that I'm all for finding out if Desert Females can lay viable clutches of eggs. However I don't think that "Stirring the Pot" is the right way to do it. Accusing big time breeders who have their name and reputation on the line, of selling to people knowing an animal won't breed is not only unfair to them, but also harming the community. This whole community is built on trust and honesty. There's a reason for the BOI forums, and that's to weed out the people who don't want to play be the unspoken rules and help this community grow.

Thank you so much! I couldn't agree more. Especially with this point here. None of these people have come into this gleefully rubbing their palms and grinning maniacally with a plan to knowingly breed a generation of sterile females and sell them at ridiculous prices. Those business people who have proven their character over the years are sweating bullets over this issue and want it resolved as much as the rest of us.

I can totally understand concerns about people knowingly selling females as viable future breeders when they may not be.....but to be so cynical and angry as to assume (and as much as declare) everyone who has ever made money off a desert project has and is currently doing so is not only foolish, it's destructive.

[spitzu]

I really really hope that there is a solution as easy as lowering temps or waiting an extra year or two before breeding. Deserts are amazing and I expect that the super would be... super

[The Hedgehog]

Thank you so much! I couldn't agree more. Especially with this point here. None of these people have come into this gleefully rubbing their palms and grinning maniacally with a plan to knowingly breed a generation of sterile females and sell them at ridiculous prices. Those business people who have proven their character over the years are sweating bullets over this issue and want it resolved as much as the rest of us.

I can totally understand concerns about people knowingly selling females as viable future breeders when they may not be.....but to be so cynical and angry as to assume (and as much as declare) everyone who has ever made money off a desert project has and is currently doing so is not only foolish, it's destructive.

Exactly. I don't know what it was that made me post this, but I got upset that so many people don't seem to have patience anymore. This is a hobby that if you want to make money or not, you have to be patient either way. I hate seeing when people get so upset because they can't breed "X" snake to "X" snake because it's not up to size, or some other issue. That's genetics, and that's what you have to deal with.

Most of the big time breeders seem to do it because it's what they love. I mean, look at Ralph Davis' birthing records. You can see in his writing how excited he gets when certain clutches hatch and he gets something cool or new. That's why I like this hobby more and more, is because of people like him who do it because they love it, not because they just want to make money.

Again, that's why we try our best to look out for each other and weed out scumbags who are in this for the wrong reason.

[MojaveLesser]

That's why I like this hobby more and more, is because of people like him who do it because they love it, not because they just want to make money.

I could not agree more. And I think that there needs to be that basic love for the animals andthe hobby to really make it an enjoyable experience. Also as puppy mills show us most of the time if the only interest is in making money the animals generally suffer, which I feel is completely wrong. Awesome Post

[RichsBallPythons]

Well My buddy Jas said something about keeping his Female Desert at 85F no hot side no cool side.

Shall see what goes on as his female came from Sloan Reptiles.

But to have a gene that requires all kinds of effort just to get good eggs isnt worth the money. Keep female prices 85% below males till this is figured out. Maybe this dramatic price drop on females will get the people breeding them to speak out. And actually provide evidence that females dont all slug out, But i have my doubts this will ever happens.

[wolfy-hound]

Personally I doubt many breeders would be intentionally selling sterile females. Aside from that, the price on a female desert is whatever the seller wants for it. If you want to buy a desert female for $10K and believe she won't be sterile, then you could be one of the few in two years produceing whatever the super form is... or combos with your female. Or you could bum out and it might be sterile.

If you think $10K is too much, then don't buy one. If it's proven that desert females are sterile, then in a couple years, they'll be basically worthless and might be sold for pet prices($100-200 maybe?) and you can snap up one to stare at because they're awesome cool colors.

If a breeder guarantees that HIS desert female will produce eggs, and you buy it... then you can go back and get whatever restitution when/if it doesn't produce. Otherwise, you're taking your chances with a fairly new morph just like everyone else. NERD thought there would be a "super" form of spider when they first got spider balls in, and they turned out to be wrong. So why assume that all the breeders who are trying to work with desert are deliberately concealing information, just because we aren't being told what we'd like?

Also, there is not a declaration that all breeders must give up information on their breeding projects. It's super wonderful that most breeders are extremely candid about what they are breeding and what the genetics of any given morph does/should do/is doing. But it's not as if that's required by law. Even Ralph Davis has his "Classified" projects that he doesn't inform us about, right? And he's one of the best about talking about what morphs do what, and has always seemed very honest about issues(kinking in caramels for instance).

Getting all worked up over what a single fairly new morph is or is not capable of at this time is a bit silly. If most desert females turn out to be sterile, then that'll be sad, but ball genetics is not some ironclad guarentee that you'll get what you want from breeding it later on.

I saw that Robyn from SYR said he knows of a couple breeders who have gotten reliable clutches from their desert females. As far as I'm concerned, at least some desert females are not sterile, since I trust Robyn to be telling the truth as he knows it.

**the $10K price was a random amount chosen for no particular reason, no guarentee of desert females being available for $10K or bringing $10K is being implied. Contents may have settled in shipping but are measured by weight, not volume.

[LotsaBalls]

So...I was "told" by a source that I have no reason to not believe, that there have been viable clutches from female deserts. Maybe not many of them but some. So like I've also heard with carmels, maybe it's just issues with temp size or whatever. I remember having balls back in like 91 and you were happy if they ate! If your going to spend enough on a snake that you could have bought a classic car, maybe you should have gotten a contract from the breeder or spent the money on lotery tickets. Without the experience of these larger breeders that they have been sharing with us people wouldn't have a clue about most of this.

[Big Gunns]

All Big Gunns can say to people who posted on this thread is "ignorance is bliss".

Hope that's drama free enough for you.

[spitzu]

Your vague/cryptic nonsense is getting a bit tiresome.