Hybrids

[Aes_Sidhe]

Uhh i just saw Wall other day woma/ball and i could change my mind... that is amazing Animal...
But I'm still with Jerhart here...

[mainbutter]

I am against hybrids for the simple fact that careless practice leads to muddy gene-pools.

Example: Google "Jungle Carpet Python" and see how many coastal/diamond intergrades pop-up as "Jungle."

Muts.

..except that carpet python intergrades aren't species-level hybrids, they're intergrades of different subspecies.

For that matter, lesser pastels (and plenty of other BP morph combos) could be called locality intergrades, as I have my suspicions that the founding individuals came from regionally separated locales of BPs.

For some reason, people don't seem to care about BP localities, and certainly there is no preference for western hognose snake localities. The latter is my biggest pet peeve, because the locality-based color variation in "normals" is huge, if the hobby cared about locality purity with western hoggies we could accomplish some seriously awesome projects. For the longest time, corn snake localities have been ignored as well, except for okeetees. I doubt most of the anti-intergrade guys even give a second thought to corn snake morphs that originate east of the Mississippi river vs corn snake morphs that originate west of the 'sippi. The only ones that people seem to care about are carpet pythons, GTPs, and boa constrictors.

[Anatopism]

I dont have an issue with hybrids so long as they are documented. I like to know what the snake actually is. In the case of locality subspecies with carpets or boas, there is such a range of sizes and colors just naturally, that they start to get mixed and muddled, and you can't tell if your snake is going to get 4 feet, or 12 feet.

I know that with most other species (e.g. some birds, mammals such as mules), the offspring are infertile if the species is seperate enough.... is this the case with bloods and balls? or carpets and balls? I see no harm in breeding for these hybrids, if the offspring can't reproduce.

[Jay_Bunny]

I am also wondering about whether the offspring could reproduce or not. See, I love hybrids. I think they are simply stunning animals. I would love to breed for hybrids in the future, thus the need for this thread, but I was worried that if I got into keeping or breeding hybrids, that I wouldn't develop a very good reputation in the reptile community. A good 11% of people that have taken this poll would not do business with someone who keeps or breeds for hybrids. And that is just from a small sample. It might even be higher. I would hate to think that someone would not do business with me just because I keep or breed hybrid animals, especially if I was very very careful in my documentation and representation. I would never misrepresent an animal as something it wasn't, but I understand there are a lot of people out there who would not be as honest. And that ruins it for us that want to do the right thing and be honest with what we are producing. (We see the same thing with ball python morphs. Someone pays for a morph only to find out it is not what they paid for)

If I were to get into keeping or breeding hybrids, I would be incredibly careful to keep accurate documentation about what I'm breeding and the outcome. The only problem is, then when you sell those animals to others, you have no control over how they go about keeping or breeding such animals.

[mainbutter]

I know that with most other species (e.g. some birds, mammals such as mules), the offspring are infertile if the species is seperate enough.... is this the case with bloods and balls? or carpets and balls? I see no harm in breeding for these hybrids, if the offspring can't reproduce.

kingsnake x corns I believe are fertile.

carpondros seem to have an inability to reproduce with other carpondros, but are capable of producing offspring with either parent species.

As far as the other hybrids, I know of no published attempts at further crossing.

Here's something to think about:

The more "different" two species are that can hybridize, typically the more unique the offspring look. It's impossible for someone to look at a wall python and think it is either parent species, or any other species for that matter.

The crosses I don't particularly think are good ideas (and typically don't look all that nice either) are things like angolans x balls and carpets x bredlis.

[pinkeye714]

I like Hybrids with Reptiles. Only time i hate Hybrids is when it threatens the species or certain animal. Like with lions and tigers crosses. If the species is not pretty much going extinct and it causes no harm nor can it reproduce then i am fine with it. I do however like BallxBlood crosses =]

[pinkeye714]

Uhh i just saw Wall other day woma/ball and i could change my mind... that is amazing Animal...
But I'm still with Jerhart here...

oo where could i see this?

[mainbutter]

oo where could i see this?

http://tinyurl.com/3eqek2a

[Skiploder]

For that matter, lesser pastels (and plenty of other BP morph combos) could be called locality intergrades, as I have my suspicions that the founding individuals came from regionally separated locales of BPs.

For some reason, people don't seem to care about BP localities, and certainly there is no preference for western hognose snake localities. The latter is my biggest pet peeve, because the locality-based color variation in "normals" is huge, if the hobby cared about locality purity with western hoggies we could accomplish some seriously awesome projects. For the longest time, corn snake localities have been ignored as well, except for okeetees. I doubt most of the anti-intergrade guys even give a second thought to corn snake morphs that originate east of the Mississippi river vs corn snake morphs that originate west of the 'sippi. The only ones that people seem to care about are carpet pythons, GTPs, and boa constrictors.

Ah, you've touched on a pet peeve of mine.

I'm a big fan of localities. I love locality pits, locality drys, locality pythons and locality boas. The fact that a bull snake from Colorado may only attain 4' in length or that a Kankakee bull has a great pattern is worth preserving. Ocean County Pines can attain great natural yellow coloration and other localities can turn brick red. On the same token, I'm very frustrated that the captive pool of Louisiana Pines is suspect because someone in the not too distant past tried to "improve" on them.

Then again I love the look of the silver bullet bull, the tiger bull and the specifically line bred reds. I love the morphs but I'm saddened that they have become the focus.

Our hobby often suffers because there is not a balance between breeding for color and maintaining locality type. Australian antaresia and aspidites pythons are a prime example. Our gene pool is so mixed that half the people can't tell a locality stimsons from a children's. The wonderful variance in woma locality type is lost because of our obsession with producing something that is pleasing to our eye -all at the expense of countless years of evolution.

We're seeing the same thing happening with drys right now - people crossing cribo localities to produce a lemon head or a predominantly yellow corais. No focus on breeding true to localities. Our captive yellow and black tail populations are rapidly becoming designer snakes.......

Now let's be clear, I'm gonna repeat that I am not against morphs and not necessarily against hybrids. I'm just saddened that there seems to be more of a focus on creating an animal that pleases our eyes than appreciating the wide palette provided by nature.

[tcutting]

http://tinyurl.com/3eqek2a

lmgtfy... Rofl!!!