Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Tessada I think the problem that folks are having is that you've listed all of these lovely terms*, but not posited a hypothesis as to how the whole toffee/albino/lavender thing would work, if not that toffee and albino are allelic. (That, and that you present your opinion in a fashion that demeans the opinions of others -- whether that is your intention or not -- which never tends to go over well.)

I can throw out some terms, too, some of which you didn't mention, like post-translational modification, DNA methyllation, DNA imprinting, etc. etc.. And sure, I could make up a hypothesis like "toffee is actually not a loss-of-function mutation of a single pigment-related gene at all, but is an epistatic modifier that will modify the effect of albino OR lavender to cause the toffee phenotype."

Sure, we're all just playing guessing games anyway; without proof, that's all we can do. ... But don't you think it's fun? I think it's great that snake breeders take such a strong interest in genetics. I breed and work with a few other species, and it seems to me that snake people take much more time to think about genetics than many other species' breeders. (Cattle notwithstanding -- but then, their genome is sequenced, and you can buy a cow that's "guaranteed" to be a high producer based on analysis of several different loci -- yes, lowly little loci -- whose alleles have been supposedly shown to be linked to production traits.)

The hypotheses we come up with to explain what we see in the snake world may not always be right, but they work. Our working hypothesis about the "platinum complex" alleles, for example, allows us to predict what we're going to get when breeding animals of this complex with a high degree of accuracy. There's no proof that we're right, and that all of those alleles are on the same locus, but at the moment we also have no reason to doubt. There's an expression in science, "keep it simple ..."

I will say, if our sample size at present is a whopping two whole breedings, I, too, fall into the category of "not yet convinced" that toffee and albino are allelic. (Although, the BLBC thread that I'm skimming now is suggesting otherwise ... YIKES! More scandal!)

I will be thoroughly convinced if albino x toffee produces toffino 100% of the time, and toffino x albino = 50% toffino, 50% albino, etc., etc.. Maybe that makes me a simple-minded fool when it comes to the complexities of genetics, but I prefer hypotheses I can work with to make predictions about outcomes as opposed to conjecture for conjecture's sake. (Not that the conjecture isn't fun as well, but when you're planning breedings it helps to have some sense of an idea and not just say, "Well, we don't really know what we're talking about, so why bother?")

Y'know? Hey aren't those toffees some pretty snakes? I want one. (Even if they are just glorified albinos -- ha!)


* Some of which don't seem to quite fit ... Dilution genes? Eh? Makes me think of the Sesamie Street song, "One of these things is not like the other ..."

[TessadasExotics]

Serpent_Nirvana,
My only claim was that by just the few breedings that have been done no one really knows whats going on quit yet. I also only said that the Lav thing could be a possibility. I am not the only person who thinks that it could be possible.
The only reason why I threw out terms was because some one else started throwing out basic terms to try to prove that it couldn't be possible. Some of the terms I used show that the 3 morphs could in fact be compatible but not all the same. Loci can have many more alleles than just two, but for some reason he thinks they are just limited to two alleles per loci.The same person also pretty much said that he knew or suspected all along that the Toffee was compatible with the Albino gene.
One generation of breedings does not present facts. Even when proving out a dinker project (which Toffees still are, are they not?) it takes a few generations of breedings, some times several years worth of breedings. You have it right at guessing games, which is what I was trying to say. It's all guessing at this time. The only facts that we have right now is that Toffees are; recessive and that they may be compatible with Albinos. I say may, because it could be possible that the Toffees just happen to be het Albino. It's just some people refuse to accept that? I don't know. Maybe I came off too brass, if so then I apologize to whom ever I may have offended. Maybe, I do get kinda flustered with some of the info in our (ball breeders) genetic understandings that are wrong.
Yes those Toffees are pretty hot. I plan on adding a het to our group hopefully in the next year or two.

[OhhWatALoser]

Serpent_Nirvana,
The only reason why I threw out terms was because some one else started throwing out basic terms to try to prove that it couldn't be possible. Some of the terms I used show that the 3 morphs could in fact be compatible but not all the same. Loci can have many more alleles than just two, but for some reason he thinks they are just limited to two alleles per loci.

The issue is with the same allele being on different loci, and you can only have two alleles in one loci per single snake, or can you have a lesser/mojave/russo all in one?

Explain to me how your terms show that? After all these responses you still offer nothing that shows evidence of this even being possible. Not even in your copy and paste genetic definitions. All you say is we don't know 100% they are what the breeders say they are. Again you can play that game indefinitely.

The same person also pretty much said that he knew or suspected all along that the Toffee was compatible with the Albino gene.

Really? This is just out right lying....

[LotsaBalls]

When was it discovered that toffee and albino made tofino or whatever?

[AaronP]

When was it discovered that toffee and albino made tofino or whatever?

A guy discovered it about a year ago in Canada. Garrick Demyer discovered it and post it on the internet about a week ago.

Oh and for a few of the other posts in this thread:

[LotsaBalls]

What do het males go for?

[Blue Apple Herps]

What do het males go for?

A lot. I can't remember ever seeing one publicly for sale actually.

[LotsaBalls]

I googled and saw a 2010 male for $3900. But it was sold. I'm not sure if that was in 2010 or 2012. I'll bit they will be cheaper this year.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I say may, because it could be possible that the Toffees just happen to be het Albino.

I was definitely thinking that too -- particularly given how common the albino gene is -- until I read through the whole BLBC thread. Seems there's a bit more intrigue with the whole thing than I previously thought ...

Also, re: that thread, for anyone interested, the posts by username "asplundii" explain the current theory pretty well IMO ... Particularly this one (it also makes me giggle ...)