Lets see if I got this right.

[snakesRkewl]

It's all theory till people actually provide proof that they exist, until then they don't exist...

[OhhWatALoser]

Brain proved a homozygous pin a few years ago now. Also vin russo imported a homozygous congo. Those 2 are the only proven dominant morphs I know of.

Its much easier to look at what it het and homo and just calculate your odds, don't worry about if its recessive, co-dom or dom.

[anatess]

It's all theory till people actually provide proof that they exist, until then they don't exist...

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Simple Mendelian genetics state that dominant x dominant would give you a chance at a both a heterozygous genotype and a homozygous genotype. The phenotype would be the same yes, (they would look the same, so there's no way you can tell which is which unless you prove it out).

So, if what you're trying to say is that Pinstripe is not a proven dominant gene, then okay. I mean - it's highly unlikely, because, c'mon, the pinstripes have been discovered what, 2002, 2003? I'm fairly certain you'd know of a super-form by now if it was indeed co-dom instead of dominant.

But, if what you're saying is - there's no homozygous form because nobody produced one... well, I don't know how you can say that when all other ball pythons follow simple Mendelian genetics. Unless you want to claim pinstripes are abnormal in that regard?

So, not sure how to take your post...

[anatess]

Its much easier to look at what it het and homo and just calculate your odds, don't worry about if its recessive, co-dom or dom.

Right.

I was attempting to lead the OP to the water instead of giving her a bottle of it or something to that effect. Because, the way I learned all this stuff is by understanding what a co-dom or dom or recessive means. So that, I can take any morph, figure out if it's recessive, co-dom, or dom and calculate the odds myself. I mean, yeah, I go to the wizard most of the time. But it's like learning how to multiply instead of just memorizing the times table. I memorized the times table, yes, but I learned how to multiply before I did that. Know what I mean?

Anyway, I gave it a shot.

[dr del]

Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Simple Mendelian genetics state that dominant x dominant would give you a chance at a both a heterozygous genotype and a homozygous genotype. The phenotype would be the same yes, (they would look the same, so there's no way you can tell which is which unless you prove it out).

So, if what you're trying to say is that Pinstripe is not a proven dominant gene, then okay. I mean - it's highly unlikely, because, c'mon, the pinstripes have been discovered what, 2002, 2003? I'm fairly certain you'd know of a super-form by now if it was indeed co-dom instead of dominant.

But, if what you're saying is - there's no homozygous form because nobody produced one... well, I don't know how you can say that when all other ball pythons follow simple Mendelian genetics. Unless you want to claim pinstripes are abnormal in that regard?

So, not sure how to take your post...

Well the rumour is BHB have a pinstripe they think might be homozygous but want to do more breeding to confim one way or another ( as well as you can ).

There aren't really any other people saying they have one though - and at 25% of a pinstripe to pinstripe clutch they really shouldn't be that rare.

Nobody seems to have a homozygous spider at all - or if they are they aren't sharing the information with us.

So simple Mendelian genetics might not be holding true or there could be some other factor at work. It's not like anyone is reporting 25% dead in egg or slugs in every clutch.

And BHB got the first pinstripe in 2001 I think?

Spider was 1999 by NERD.

It's not really all that long.


dr del

[Jay_Bunny]

Yes, while simple genetics will tell you there should be a homozygous animal that looks identical to the heterozygous animal, so far we have not seen it. Does that mean it doesn't exist, no. But as of right now, very very very few people claim to have a homozygous pin or spider, and even then, they are not blaring the news across the internet for all to see. It could be they just hit amazing odds (all pins in a clutch). I have a clutch of 4 eggs sitting in the incubator from a spider to a normal. If I hit all spiders in those 4 eggs, it could be that I have a homozygous spider.....or it means I hit good odds. That is why anyone that does hit those odds, must then breed that animal for several more seasons to prove out if they are indeed a homozygous animal. And in the 10+ years these animals have been in the industry, you'd think more people would have homozygous animals, especially if the chances are a whopping 25%! The chances of hatching out an axanthic killerbee are less, and there is proof (pictures) of those existing.

I was actually thinking of taking some spiders and pinstripes and breeding them for the sole purpose of trying to find a homozygous animal. It would take years and years, and in the end might result in nothing. But it could be fun to try. Who knows.

[anatess]

Yes, while simple genetics will tell you there should be a homozygous animal that looks identical to the heterozygous animal, so far we have not seen it. Does that mean it doesn't exist, no. But as of right now, very very very few people claim to have a homozygous pin or spider, and even then, they are not blaring the news across the internet for all to see. It could be they just hit amazing odds (all pins in a clutch). I have a clutch of 4 eggs sitting in the incubator from a spider to a normal. If I hit all spiders in those 4 eggs, it could be that I have a homozygous spider.....or it means I hit good odds. That is why anyone that does hit those odds, must then breed that animal for several more seasons to prove out if they are indeed a homozygous animal. And in the 10+ years these animals have been in the industry, you'd think more people would have homozygous animals, especially if the chances are a whopping 25%! The chances of hatching out an axanthic killerbee are less, and there is proof (pictures) of those existing.

I was actually thinking of taking some spiders and pinstripes and breeding them for the sole purpose of trying to find a homozygous animal. It would take years and years, and in the end might result in nothing. But it could be fun to try. Who knows.

And that's the thing. Nobody I know wants to invest the time and expense of proving it out.

But... if a tree falls in the middle of the forest and nobody was there to hear it, does that mean it didn't make any sound?

I don't know. I can't prove it to you. But, it's safe to assume it did.

[Jay_Bunny]

Physics and genetics are two different things. It could be that homozygous spiders and pins are lethal and either people experience egg death or follicle absorption as a result (which has not been proven either). We won't know until we can prove it out. Is there a homozygous spider or pinstripe out there? Maybe.....but we cannot say for certain that there is. We cannot assume there is just because a punnet square tells us it is so.

Years ago, people devoted to science told us the earth was the center of the solar system because the stars and planets seemed to orbit around us in the night sky. And for the longest time, this was the truth and the only way of thinking about how the universe was oriented. Then science changed and they proved we in fact revolve around the sun. So there is plenty we still do not know about genetics. The spider and pinstripe gene might be one of those things we just have not figured out yet. Maybe you have to combine the spider gene with another color/pattern mutation in order to unlock the homozygous potential. Perhaps the spider gene simply requires a new mutation that has not been discovered yet. One that would allow there to be a homozygous animal. Maybe it is sex-linked. Perhaps the spider gene isn't a dominant gene but in fact in a whole different ball park of genetics and we only say its dominant to make it easier to understand. We won't know until someone proves it out. So far, no one has.

[anatess]

Physics and genetics are two different things. It could be that homozygous spiders and pins are lethal and either people experience egg death or follicle absorption as a result (which has not been proven either). We won't know until we can prove it out. Is there a homozygous spider or pinstripe out there? Maybe.....but we cannot say for certain that there is. We cannot assume there is just because a punnet square tells us it is so.

Years ago, people devoted to science told us the earth was the center of the solar system because the stars and planets seemed to orbit around us in the night sky. And for the longest time, this was the truth and the only way of thinking about how the universe was oriented. Then science changed and they proved we in fact revolve around the sun. So there is plenty we still do not know about genetics. The spider and pinstripe gene might be one of those things we just have not figured out yet. Maybe you have to combine the spider gene with another color/pattern mutation in order to unlock the homozygous potential. Perhaps the spider gene simply requires a new mutation that has not been discovered yet. One that would allow there to be a homozygous animal. Maybe it is sex-linked. Perhaps the spider gene isn't a dominant gene but in fact in a whole different ball park of genetics and we only say its dominant to make it easier to understand. We won't know until someone proves it out. So far, no one has.

Okay, Jay... we are looking to you to get our minds un-confuddled. You got a female spider? I got a male one you can borrow.

I'd love to prove it out... but... I had one clutch last year and I found out I don't do very well with the breeding drama. So, you're gonna have to do it for us!

[Jay_Bunny]

I do have some spiders and I am hatching some out very soon. I was planning on selling any male spiders I hatch out this season, but if anyone would think it would be a good experiment to try working towards a homozygous spider, I am more than up for the challenge.