Harlequin Wide-Stripe

[fishboyUK]

I think there are also various types of what people would describe as harlequin, some being dominant/codominantly genetically inheritable, some perhaps only polygenetically.

I believe that is where the confusion over inheritability arises.

I know I keep seeing snakes being described as harlequins that to me look similar in pattern type, but that is it. No melty sides, not enough black, colour wrong....etc.

In the same way a non-genetic very reduced pattern/banded could look like a type 2 woma, but isn't.

[Drewp]

Polygenetic, you say? That is definitely an interesting concept and could explain why the odds have been so poor with the wide-stripe clutches. Unlike most dominant or co-dominant mutations, there could be more than one gene at play... so rather than 50% odds you've got more like 25%, or even less - could be impossible to determine the real % chance without knowing how many genes are affected on the allele. The gene should still be inheritable by the offspring, though. Is that right or am I confused here...

I believe with Classic Jungles (mind you I haven't dug very deep with them) the genetics are not transferrable and it is just a fluke that one hatches out. To my knowledge there hasn't been any success in trying to breed the mutation as a dominant, co-dominant or recessive trait. I'd imagine there was a lot of work put into trying to prove them out...

Then theres all these other wacky genes like the spector x yellowbelly = superstripe, which then produces both spectors and yellowbellies... Desert females not producing... Caramels hatching out kinked at random... etc etc.

I'm no genetics expert lol I've only been learning about them through ball python websites for the past year or two, but I find it all so compelling... so if anyone would care to explain this polygenetic theory in more detail it would be much appreciated. Are there any other morphs thought to be polygenetic?

[dr del]

Hi,

That's another point - it wouldn't have to be on the same allele.

Think of it like NERDs statments about the het pied gene having a visual effect in some combos.

You might end up that what we call harlequins are actually double heterozygous (or homozygous ) for two (visual or non-visual ) mutations and that it is sheer fluke there is a visual effect when the two are in the same animal.

Which potentially leads to some seriously nerfed up results from breeding two visual animals together;

Results

6.25%Normal
12.5%het. Harequin type A (non visual )
6.25%Harelquin type B (non visual )
6.25%Harlequin type A (non visual )
12.5%het. Harlequin type B (non visual )
12.5%Harlequin type A, het Harelquin type B ( visual? )
12.5%Harlequin type B, het Harelquin type B ( visual? )
6.25%Harlequin type A, Harelquin type B ( visual? )
25%het. Harlequin type A, het. Harlequin type B (visual? )

Which would give 56.25% possibly visual animals from breeding to harlequins together. Or 25% if only the double homozygous was a visual expressed combination.

Either way the chances per egg would be different than we would have expected but would need a large sample to try and prove those were the odds anyone was actually getting.

But I'm guessing it cannot be as simple as only the double homozygous being visual as that would mean breeding two harlequins together would give 100% harlequins as a result.

If it was allelic (sp? ) then breeding two visual parents together should give 25% harlequins as a result. But you also couldn't get harlequins from breeding to an animal that didn't have one of the genes.

And all this is based on a blind hope it is that simple and involve a combination of the those concepts or more than 2 genes.

Excuse me I think I need to go lie down with a cloth over my head till the hurting stops.


dr del

[Drewp]

I think I'll opt for an herbal remedy.... how much more confused could I really get.

Thanks though, that theory is really something else.

[DemmBalls]

Here is a "Dinker" that I picked up at a local pet store a few months ago. I'm begining to wonder if he could be a Harlequin?







Thoughts?

[Drewp]

I was talking to my buddy who purchased his pair from VMS, he told me that there are a couple of distinguishing characteristics that they told him about at the time of purchase.

-"Key-holes" normally present in the 1st 1/3rd of the stripe (starting at the head), he wasn't sure if he was told that they all absolutely have to have them or if it is just common.



-Two black stripes, one on each side, running down the base of the tail and encompassing the tip of the tail. (In the picture, it only shows one side... and my thumb is covering part of it. But there are dark parallel stripes that join at the base of the tail.) Again he wasn't sure if this is a must-have on a wide-stripe or more of a "het-pied marker" kind of deal.



-They often exhibit "floating alien heads" at the bottom 1/3 of the snake.



- A blushed out head... as you can see above.

The snakes that my buddy owns also exhibit these traits and he talked to the people from VMS for quite a while when he bought his pair, which is where he learned about these traits... I would imagine that there are plenty of normals who would show these patterns as well, so who knows if its just a coincidental thing or if these are some of the things to look for? I figured it was worth posting anyways.

[jsmorphs2]

Interesting thread. We have a dinker Harlequin girl. She has only produced one offspring (pictured below) which we kept as a hold back so this is still in the works. Last season she was paired with a yellowbelly but slugged out. When we first got her from Outback I contacted Dan Wolfe - http://dwherp.com/Photo%20Gallery.htm - He has a morph he calls a Rio, (which is very cool!) and I wanted his opinion on this girl. I don't have belly shots but she has the "railroad" makings down her entire belly.






Hold back dinker female with very rich, dark colors.





Here is another striped dinker project. We are thinking a whole different direction with this girl though, not Harlequin. Her colors are completely different.





To the OP: Your new girl looks like a great dinker project. Could prove out for you.

[Robyn@SYR]

I will chime in here only briefly, busy day here at PE and SYR : )

We started working with some "wild stripe" stuff back in the 90's. The epitome of the dinker project, at the time. We hatched a couple of fully striped babies, but this was before the Ball python morph craze, so I didn't recognize the significance of it. I sold one of those full PE stripes to Tracy at VPI, way back when.

We raised some, including partial stripes, and while VMS Sean was working here at PE, he picked up some of that line.

I don't know when they became "Harlequin", but I have never referred to them that way. At this point, we just call them PE Stripes.

I STILL don't understand how they work. There is a great variance in the amount of striping, from full stripe, to partial stripes, to no stripes. That keyhole feature comes into play often as well. But it is all so unpredictable.

We really started making some progress with our "Double Het Ghost PE Stripes". We bred a PE Stripe (not a fantastic one, just a mostly striped one) to a Ghost/Hypo. Those babies all looked normal. After raising them up for 6 or 7 years, we bred them back together and got PE Stripe Ghosts. The striping still varies animal to animal, or doesn't appear at all. Some of those Ghost PE Stripes are pictured below, along with some of the better PE Stripes.

We have also done Pin PE Stripes and Lesser PE Stripes...

Ghost PE Stripe from 2010- from normal appearing Double Het parents:




The best "plain" PE Stripes appear like this:

[Robyn@SYR]

This is where it turned weird a couple of years ago. We started hatching out stuff from this same Double Het Ghost PE Stripe line that started looking like Tri Stripes.

hatched a couple of years ago:




And the best one yet, hatched in 2010:


Now I REALLY don't know what is going on : )

[jsmorphs2]

And the best one yet, hatched in 2010:


Now I REALLY don't know what is going on : )

So this came from breeding double het PE Stripe/Hypos?! WOW! Makes me consider breeding our "harlequin" girl with our male hypo next season instead of a yellowbelly and holding on to the clutch.