BumbleBee Wobble

[cinderbird]

It is an interesting morph. I've seen some awesome bees in particular!
Wouldn't it be great if the better breeders worked to eradicate the wobble?

The problem with this theory, while a good theory, runs on the assumption that the spider gene and whatever causes the wobble are NOT linked.

We have come to assume that the wobble and the spider gene ARE linked. If you don't have the spider gene, you don't have the wobble. If you do have the spider gene, you have the wobble. Thats the facts as we know them right now. I remember hearing on reptile radio i believe it was, that jaguar carpets can have the same problem. They think it may be linked to the reduced melanin production in the body. Melanin or something related to it does some important connecting stuff in the brain, and animals that have less body pigmentation also have less of the "brain stuff." This was just a super interesting theory that I'd heard.

Its not like say... Hip dysplasia in dogs where you can breed animals with good hips together and theoretically get more animals with good hips. ALL SPIDERS WOBBLE, the single original animal wobbles, so do all the offspring.

[Dave Green]

Search "spider wobble", that should give you a few days worth of reading...

[Johan]

Let's see this thread is about wobble/spinning.

Wobble in Spiders cannot be bred out so what is the responsible thing to do, stop breeding them?

No, dont stop breeding them. Stop buying them. Breeding is driven by consumption.

[LizardPants]

The problem with this theory, while a good theory, runs on the assumption that the spider gene and whatever causes the wobble are NOT linked.

We have come to assume that the wobble and the spider gene ARE linked. If you don't have the spider gene, you don't have the wobble. If you do have the spider gene, you have the wobble. Thats the facts as we know them right now. I remember hearing on reptile radio i believe it was, that jaguar carpets can have the same problem. They think it may be linked to the reduced melanin production in the body. Melanin or something related to it does some important connecting stuff in the brain, and animals that have less body pigmentation also have less of the "brain stuff." This was just a super interesting theory that I'd heard.

Its not like say... Hip dysplasia in dogs where you can breed animals with good hips together and theoretically get more animals with good hips. ALL SPIDERS WOBBLE, the single original animal wobbles, so do all the offspring.

Thank you for your intelligent post on this matter, I greatly appreciate it.
The way I see it, linked genes certainly are more difficult to separate. However, I don't think it's proven impossible in the case of spiders. As breeders, if we like the aesthetics that the spider gene provides, we should concentrate our efforts to improve the gene pool. As consumers, we should support the efforts of those who do. Who wants to perpetuate producing animals with mental retardation? I don't.

Jaguar carpets do wobble, also enigma leopard geckos have wobble or nervous disorders.

[mdjudson]

Thank you for your intelligent post on this matter, I greatly appreciate it.
The way I see it, linked genes certainly are more difficult to separate. However, I don't think it's impossible. As breeders, if we like the aesthetics that the spider gene provides, we should concentrate our efforts to improve the gene pool.

You don't get it... enough breedings with spiders have been done that we can conclude that it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate. Unless maybe you can do some stem cell research in your basement, you will not be able to separate it.

[cinderbird]

Thank you for your intelligent post on this matter, I greatly appreciate it.
The way I see it, linked genes certainly are more difficult to separate. However, I don't think it's impossible. As breeders, if we like the aesthetics that the spider gene provides, we should concentrate our efforts to improve the gene pool.

No problem

Let me add some more personal anecdotal info I've got. Since i started owning ball pythons , I've owned three spiders, all female, two related. With the exception of one girl that needed some force feeding to get started, they are my best eating, fastest growing, most tolerant and docile snakes. Three animals surely insn't enough to go all statistician on you, but multiple times in my relativily short career owning these guys, this has happened. Even the girl that needed the force feeding eventually went on to become a MONSTER feeder.

One can argue that animals that eat, grow and thrive at the same or even better (i can show you a graph I made laying out all the growth rates of a set of ball pythons I'd owned a few years ago) than their normal colored counterparts aren't really in need of improvement.

[Amon Ra Reptiles]

I have a hard time believing that separating the gene that causes wobble would be impossible. But I think where the problem lies as Deborah kinda said, there is no way to tell which animals will wobble and when in their life they will. So you may be able to separate the wobble gene, but you would need advanced research to tell you first if it is separable, and second which ones don't have it. I'm not saying it's possible or impossible but it would certainly take more than simple selective breeding to separate it. And I'm pretty sure corporate lab is going to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into researching spider ball python genetics. Until one of us hits the lotto I think we may just have to assume that if you get a spider you get wobble.

[Dave Green]

Also, most breeders aren't breeding spider to spider since there is no super spider that we are aware of. Therefore, the spider gene is probably one of the most "out-bred" genes when it comes to morphs that have been around as long as the spider has been around.

In addition, many spiders (I hesitate saying most) don't have a significant wobble. They will slightly tilt their head or show more signs of wobble when they get excited, during feeding, etc. They seem to grow well, breed well and thrive.

[LotsaBalls]

Ok, here's another way to look at it (adding on to what others have said) what if the wobble was something like a tail wag, something more, fun looking. Would it be acceptable then?

[cinderbird]

Ok, here's another way to look at it (adding on to what others have said) what if the wobble was something like a tail wag, something more, fun looking. Would it be acceptable then?

A wagging tail is a voluntary action (happy dog wags its tail, unhappy dog has stiff tail, scared dog as a lowered tail). For dogs, the tail is an actually something that will indicate mood.

The wobble/head tilt/corkscrew/whatever isn't seen (as far as I know) as something that the animal does because it wants to and has little to no bearing on the "mood" of the snake, just that it seems to happen more frequently when the animal is put into a high stress environment (shipping, feeding, etc).

I would believe this is why it is seen as a defect in an animal.