A little more indepth--defects?

[purplemuffin]

Now, I've read a lot of the problems with spiders, and have seen the back and forth arguments about whether or not they are okay to breed, seen statistics and how many seem to develop severe problems and how many don't, but I never really see too much about the problems with other morphs.

When I look it up the answer is usually just: caramels have kinking issues, cinnamons have the 'duck bill', BELs have bug eyes, and spiders have their own neurotic problems. I rarely see anyone go into more depth about the other morph issues! So I'll just ask it here.

Caramels kinking--how often per snake born? What does kinking do to the snake's health, and when kinking does happen, is it usually dangerous or just unpleasant?

Cinnamons and their head shape--again, how often per snake? Does their deformity ruin their quality of life/how many with the issue are severe or not severe--(Example: It happens very rarely but when it does happen it is usually pretty bad? Or it happens fairly common but usually is not so bad, etc. etc.)

Lesser/Butter BEL eye problems--I have never heard anything about this other than it happens. People who breed BELs, does this happen a lot? I personally love them and have always considered breeding them, but again, the idea of deformities worries me.

Pretty much all of these have the same basic questions, how often, how severe, percentage of the ones that have it that get it severely...etc.

Also maybe some images? I have trouble recognizing kinking and I would like to know what the issue with the eyes looks like on a BEL!


Thanks for your time!

[Ergo Proxy]

i dont know if you have seen this..but this is a pretty good video on carmel kinking.. i would also like to know about the cinni duckbill thing as i was unaware of this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baquu5GYyVA

[xdeus]

I think you're going to have a very difficult time getting those questions answered. Breeders tend to not advertise genetic defects in the morphs that they work with, but rather use the opposite when they have good specimens (Kink-free caramel for sale!).

I believe the only one that is consistent are spiders in that supposedly they all have a wobble or can develop one to a certain extent.

As far as the others, some lines of Black Pastels and Cinnamons have much worse duckbills than others. I've produced some cinnamons that seem to have a slight duckbill, but I've also produced Silver Bullets and a Super Cinnamon that don't have any indication of a duckbill (from the same line). I have heard of some people producing Super Cinnamons/Black Pastels that were so malformed that they had to be euthanized.

The same thing with kinked Caramels. I'm not positive, but I believe that is another one that is line or even specimen dependent.

[purplemuffin]

Ahhh I see! I figured that might be the case, oh well. Thank you for your info! I had heard some black pastels/cinns have had to be euthanized, I was sort of hoping to hear that was a very, very rare thing!

I guess I will continue my research!

[xdeus]

Ahhh I see! I figured that might be the case, oh well. Thank you for your info! I had heard some black pastels/cinns have had to be euthanized, I was sort of hoping to hear that was a very, very rare thing!

I guess I will continue my research!

I believe it is pretty rare. I've produced many cinnamons and cinny morphs and haven't had anything unusual pop out of an egg. It's always a good idea, though, to ask your breeder as many questions as you can about the genetic history. Of course nothing says they have to tell you the truth, but hopefully you would be working with an honest breeder.

[OhhWatALoser]

I have heard of some people producing Super Cinnamons/Black Pastels that were so malformed that they had to be euthanized.

holy crap, I've never herd of it being that bad, could they not eat due to the severity of it? thats crazy.

I don't think anyone done a statistic count. those question might not have an answer right now.

I'm hoping for some BEL this year and ill be sure to post them regardless of bug eyes or not.

[purplemuffin]

I understand, I LOVE BELs, and they were always one of the things that made me sort of daydream of breeding in the far off future

I just know with my luck I would end up with one BEL out of the clutch and he/she would end up being ridiculously deformed. That's sort of why I made this post, I wanted to know exactly how rare it seems in most people's experiences--out of how many clutches did they see even a single snake with a problem, etc. Partially to calm my own nerves about the subject. I figure the deformities are fairly uncommon, or at least the dangerous ones are or we would hear a lot more about it! But it's always nice to hear straight from a breeder if they have issues or not.

[RandyRemington]

It's only the super cinnamon/black pastel's that have issues, not the regular (heterozygous) versions, right?

The one and only super cinnamon clutch I saw had one kinked and duck billed animal and one that looked normal to me. The breeder mentioned that kinking is also an issue with them. I saw the problem one as an adult last year and he looked better than I expected (grew out of it a bit). Not sure if it was related but he seemed to be a mean cuss.

I've heard plenty of reports of breeders having 50% of their caramels kinked. But then I've also read a few reports of breeders with long strings of 0% kinks. I think there has to be a significant variable involved. Many believe it's genetic but I suspect some environmental factor that varies between collections.

[purplemuffin]

Wow, that high? Interesting! I have heard of some caramel lines that have fewer problems as well.. Caramels are another of my favorites, so I would want to be sure I got one from a strong line Okay, I don't know much about kinking--what exactly IS kinking, it is like related to the spine somehow? I guess a severely kinked animal would have some trouble getting around?

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I will preface this by saying that I haven't personally produced any of the aforementioned animals; this is all going on research.

I recently bought a caramel male and before I did, I did quite a bit of research into the kinking issue. As Randy has stated, it does seem that certain lines or breeders have more of an issue with kinking than others. Though I agree that it could be an environmental factor, I am somewhat inclined to think that it may be due to genetic factors (independent of the caramel gene itself) in the various bloodlines. I say this only because it seems that certain bloodlines (ie, Malsin/Upscale line) are always mentioned as being very "strong" and not kinking, while other lines are mentioned as being more consistent with their kinking.

I am not 100% sure what is going on with their physiology to cause the kinking. It's a spinal deformity, for sure, but it isn't evident WHAT is causing them to be deformed -- ie, if the vertebrae are malformed, or underformed, or fused, or what. I haven't even so much as been able to find an X-ray of a kinked caramel (or any congenitally kinked snake, for that matter), which is really too bad ...

Another issue I encountered when researching caramels, and which doesn't seem to be as "well known" as the issues you mention in your first post, is that it appears (TO ME, based on my research), that the females are sub-fertile. I have read numerous accounts and seen numerous photos of caramel girls on slugs. At best, I have seen pics of caramel females on clutches with only 1-2 eggs and 3-4 slugs, and that is absolute BEST. I have yet to see or hear of a caramel female laying a good, solid 4-6 egg clutch with no slugs. This isn't just from reading threads on that topic specifically, either. I have searched a few different blogs on the web to see if maybe folks had had caramel females on good clutches, and just didn't bother posting the good ones to forums ... ALL of the blog posts I've seen with an adult female caramel, she's sitting on a clutch of slugs.

I have hope, based on reports of "low-kink" lines, that the kinking issue can be selected away from. Maybe not bred out entirely, but maybe close. The fertility issue I am less hopeful for.

As far as the super lesser/butter bug-eyes, this was the buggiest one I could find on Google image search:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...-super-butter/

The 2nd picture of him shows his pop-eyes.

A few others also have eyes that look a bit big for their heads, though I reckon that guy's the worst I've seen.

AFAIK, though, it is purely cosmetic; I haven't heard any reports of it affecting the animal. Although, that having been said, it's enough to make me want to avoid breeding those particular morphs together as a way of making a white snake. You can still make a very white snake breeding mojave x lesser, and I don't THINK those have the same bug-eye issues ... If anyone has experienced otherwise, however, please do let us know!