Pied Theory

[Robbiebisme]

I was thinking today about the levels of white that vary among pieds. It is clearly not genetic at least not totally considering the fact that a high white pied can produce low white babies. So this got me thinking and made me think about some of my many genetics and bio classes when I was in college. I remembered how some animals colors can be determined by temperature such as Siamese Cats. Also I remembered that alligators and crocodiles gender is determined by temperature while in the egg. My thought is what if variations in egg temperatures cause different levels of white in pieds. It does not seem logical for it to be completely random so if its not genetic then the only thing I can think it to be would be environment. Has anyone had multiple clutches of pied and incubated them at various temperatures to see? Has anyone noted levels of white in pieds in relation to location within the incubator?

[Russ Lawson]

I'm pretty sure there is a complex molecular mechanism that determines the amount of pattern deletion in each individual piebald animal. Temperature is known to cause pattern abnormalities in ball pythons, but that is usually caused by unstable temperatures, and not just incubating at the low or high end of the incubation range. Also, I've seen high and low white pieds hatch out from the same clutches and the eggs would have been incubating at the same temperature, or at least within tenths of degrees of each other. I believe there may be some studies of the piebald mutation in other species that might shed some more light on this subject.

[joe23]

sounds good, but has a major catch- how do u explain that u got different amounts of white in the same clutch?


i really like ur thoughts and it would make a bit sense, considering that temps and change patterns (too low or to high temps often cause striping and stuff), but the reason above dont let me think its true.

[steveboos]

sounds good, but has a major catch- how do u explain that u got different amounts of white in the same clutch?


i really like ur thoughts and it would make a bit sense, considering that temps and change patterns (too low or to high temps often cause striping and stuff), but the reason above dont let me think its true.

Umm cause like we have said before, IT'S RANDOM. The amount of white varies so much between pieds and most people who claim their hets only produce high white pieds usually are lying or just trying to get more money out of them.

[loonunit]

Umm cause like we have said before, IT'S RANDOM. The amount of white varies so much between pieds and most people who claim their hets only produce high white pieds usually are lying or just trying to get more money out of them.

Oh, it's certainly RANDOM, but that doesn't mean those people are lying--I've spent FAR TOO MUCH of the last year looking at clutches of other people's pieds on KS and fauna and breeder's websites, and I can tell you for a fact that some pieds do hatch clutches with similar "looks". So it's not genetic in the simple recessive/dominant sense that we're used to with ball pythons, but that doesn't mean you can't create a tendency by line breeding--ie. only breeding the high white pieds from high white parents, and then repeating on the next generation. After a handful of generations, I bet you can reproduce some pretty similar-looking clutches.

Just look at the crazy stuff you can do with line-breeding dogs. Chihuahuas and Great Danes aren't dominant or recessive, but apparently it's (relatively) easy to make those traits breed true.

So low whites -can- throw high whites and vice versa, but I bet it's quite easy to make your low whites MOSTLY throw low white, or your high whites MOSTLY throw high white.

[loonunit]

I was thinking today about the levels of white that vary among pieds. It is clearly not genetic at least not totally considering the fact that a high white pied can produce low white babies. So this got me thinking and made me think about some of my many genetics and bio classes when I was in college. I remembered how some animals colors can be determined by temperature such as Siamese Cats. Also I remembered that alligators and crocodiles gender is determined by temperature while in the egg. My thought is what if variations in egg temperatures cause different levels of white in pieds. It does not seem logical for it to be completely random so if its not genetic then the only thing I can think it to be would be environment. Has anyone had multiple clutches of pied and incubated them at various temperatures to see? Has anyone noted levels of white in pieds in relation to location within the incubator?

I think the statistics on "location within the incubator" would be too small to be useful. You'll need at least 20 piebald eggs to really convince me.

...but if you happen to have a bunch of pieds sitting around, I think incubating them a few degrees higher or lower for a few years might be an interesting experiment... just don't do anything that risks their health, 'kay?

[Robbiebisme]

I do not have that many pied eggs laying around. If only I did, but I was just wondering about a potential external factor that is playing a role, temperature, humidity, air pressure, or an internal factor how the snake rests in the egg. I'm not saying I have the answer to this mystery I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that it is random. Nature doesn’t do random. It may seem that it does but most random things are genetic mutations and considering we are already dealing with a genetic mutation It just seems there is something else making an impact here.

[Brandon Osborne]

Nature doesn’t do random. It may seem that it does but most random things are genetic mutations and considering we are already dealing with a genetic mutation It just seems there is something else making an impact here.

This is an oxymoron. Having bred Pieds for several years, I can say it is random. In 09 I produced 14 pieds. I had everything from no-white to 90%+ white.....

[Hypnotic Exotic]

Talking to Alan Bosch a few years ago, he claims to produce a lot of high white pieds through line breeding but he's the only one I know of that claims that.

[Russ Lawson]

This is an oxymoron. Having bred Pieds for several years, I can say it is random. In 09 I produced 14 pieds. I had everything from no-white to 90%+ white.....

Agreed partially: Nature absolutely does do random - just usually not on purpose. Why do you think eukaryotes go to such lengths to protect the genes from mutation. Mutations are random for the most part, and are typically not something that is desired (at least from a molecular/cellular biology standpoint).

However, I don't think it can be said 100% for certain that the amount of white on a piebald is random. From a breeder's standpoint you can say it's random and that's enough, but having a basic understanding of molecular and cellular biology, I can tell you there is/are most likely some determinate factor(s) that is/are likely somewhat complex. What I believe is that there is a series of molecular events that occur in the development of the embryo which determine the extent to which the partial leucism of a piebald animal is expressed. I will see if I have time to look into this sometime this week to see if any studies have been done on the actual mechanism of the expression of piebaldism in any other species.