Need advise

[Ladybugzcrunch]

Hello. This is my first post and have a few questions. About a week ago I went to a reptile show and acquired a 2010 spider male and 2010 pastel female. I have not gotten a scale yet so have not had the chance to weigh them. The male is a bit more girthy and heavier than the female. The seller indicated that the female had eaten and it was obvious that the male had eaten. I brought them home and put them in a 10 gallon lined with paper towels, under tank heat pad, warm hide, cool hide, and small water dish. I have them in a humid closet where the ambient stays in the low to mid 80's. I offered them a F/T hopper last Monday and Tuesday but they refused. Wednesday I purchased two live hoppers. I removed the male and put him in a rubbermaid. Both snakes took the hoppers readily. I put the male back with the female later on that night and did not touch them for another 48 hours. No regurgitation. After that I have been handling them every day for about 15-20 min then put them back. I plan to feed them a live hopper at 7 day intervals for the next three feedings before trying a F/T again. I have a 30 gallon aquarium opening up next week that I will move them into. I know many feel that they should not be housed together but need to know how important this really is as hatchlings. Obviously I want to breed them but know about the whole female 1800 grams before breeding thing. When do these snakes become sexually mature-meaning when do I have to separate them in order to prevent an early and undesired mating? Basically, I intend to separate them but do not want to just yet due to space restrictions. How do you feel about that and how long (what weight) can I safely leave them together (not feeding together obviously)? The female has a different personality than the male. When I pick her up she still balls up tightly around my fingers. She sits in the strike position on my hand for nearly the entire time holding her. Is this because she is younger or is she hungry? She also feels softer than the male. His body feels more muscular and and well harder. I have no other words for it. The female feels more velvety and her body is not quite as muscular feeling. Does this sound normal for a young hatchling? I obtained these two from a pretty reputable breeder. Please let me know. Also, my spider has markings all the way around his head whereas the pastel has a full white bottom jaw. I can not find any pictures of the underside of a spider's head. Does this sound normal or special? Anyone have a pic of the underside of a spider head?

[angllady2]

I'll spare you the "housing snakes together lecture" but I will let you know you are asking for nothing but problems, even this young.

You will have a much harder time feeding, with sheds, competition for the best hide spots, and if one grows a little faster than the other, cannibalism is a real possibility. If you really wanted the best for your snakes and to breed them in the future, you would have had two setups before you even bought them.

You say they are together now due to space limits, but even a 10 gallon tank is big for a baby ball, and 2 ten gallons don't take up that much more room than one does. If you HAVE to use the 30, then divide it with plexiglass and make two small enclosures, one for each snake.

A male ball python is capable of breeding as young as 4 months old, and if he gets ready before her, they will fight, and one or the other will end up hurt. It will take her a minimum of 2 to 3 years to be ready, so you are going to have to house them separately for a long time, you might as well start now and prevent problems. Of course females can breed younger, but just as in humans it's a bad idea. Just because a 12 year old can get pregnant, does not mean she's ready to be a mom. And just because your female might breed as small as 800-900 grams does not mean she should be allowed to.

If your male is heavier and more muscular, he will easily dominate the female and take the best of everything, and she will suffer for it. You may not think so now, but believe me in 6 months when she's prone to illness and half the size she could be, you'll regret keeping them together.

Gale

[PghBall]

Hello. This is my first post and have a few questions. About a week ago I went to a reptile show and acquired a 2010 spider male and 2010 pastel female. I have not gotten a scale yet so have not had the chance to weigh them. The male is a bit more girthy and heavier than the female. The seller indicated that the female had eaten and it was obvious that the male had eaten. I brought them home and put them in a 10 gallon lined with paper towels, under tank heat pad, warm hide, cool hide, and small water dish. I have them in a humid closet where the ambient stays in the low to mid 80's. I offered them a F/T hopper last Monday and Tuesday but they refused. Wednesday I purchased two live hoppers. I removed the male and put him in a rubbermaid. Both snakes took the hoppers readily. I put the male back with the female later on that night and did not touch them for another 48 hours. No regurgitation. After that I have been handling them every day for about 15-20 min then put them back. I plan to feed them a live hopper at 7 day intervals for the next three feedings before trying a F/T again. I have a 30 gallon aquarium opening up next week that I will move them into. I know many feel that they should not be housed together but need to know how important this really is as hatchlings. Obviously I want to breed them but know about the whole female 1800 grams before breeding thing. When do these snakes become sexually mature-meaning when do I have to separate them in order to prevent an early and undesired mating? Basically, I intend to separate them but do not want to just yet due to space restrictions. How do you feel about that and how long (what weight) can I safely leave them together (not feeding together obviously)? The female has a different personality than the male. When I pick her up she still balls up tightly around my fingers. She sits in the strike position on my hand for nearly the entire time holding her. Is this because she is younger or is she hungry? She also feels softer than the male. His body feels more muscular and and well harder. I have no other words for it. The female feels more velvety and her body is not quite as muscular feeling. Does this sound normal for a young hatchling? I obtained these two from a pretty reputable breeder. Please let me know. Also, my spider has markings all the way around his head whereas the pastel has a full white bottom jaw. I can not find any pictures of the underside of a spider's head. Does this sound normal or special? Anyone have a pic of the underside of a spider head?

You can feed them every 5 days until they reach 300 Grams and then switch over to a 7 day feeding schedule. Also, as far as sexual maturity, males have been known to become mature in their first year and as small as under 500 grams. I have always heard females should have at least 3 winters under their belts and be roughly 1500 grams. I'm sure that they could become mature earlier but it would be on an individual basis. Keeping them housed together could be risky in that regard. If the female is balling up and being in a striking position, she most likely sees you as a threat. Once she gets some size to her, that will hopefully go away. As far as her body mass compared to the males, again each snake grows differently. I don't know about the markings, you would probably have to post pics to better explain what you mean. Welcome to BP.net!

[kitedemon]

Hi most will tell you that they should be separated asap. I tend to agree with that wisdom, they will likely co habitat reasonable well but the downsides are if one is sick the other is suspect. It is impossible to keep accurate notes on defecation ect with two in one cage. I understand the space issue but I would try to find a resolution soon! If you are planning to breed you will have a bigger space issue at that point. Find a solution, racks or tubs new shelving but something.

Reading a snake is a challenge the s curve isn't always a prelude to a strike it can just be how she is sitting. Is she actively tongue flicking? A soft body and slower breathing is usually a relaxed posture, rapid breathing and tense muscles is not relaxed at all, the constant attempt to get away usually falls here too. The hunger response in my experience is being active roaming at night and sometimes dawn too. The sitting in ambush mode head out of hide just waiting can also be a signal of hunger, or not they are individuals I own a shy snake, an very inquisitive snake, a interested in new things but not too adventurous snake and a lap snake who will sit and chill for hours and make no attempt to leave. They all have differing responses to things.

I would really recommend some books, www.reptileknowledge.com offers a nice ebook for a reasonable price. The ball Python manual Philippe De Vosjoli, Art of keeping snakes also be Philippe De Vosjoli, Ball Pythons by Bartlett and Bartlett are all good and fairly prices books that are easily available amazon I think has all of them.
Good Luck Hope this helps,
Alex

[Ladybugzcrunch]

Thanks for the quick reply! Okay, separation has been stressed. I can divide the 30 gallon easily so maybe I will do that. I also have a 55 gallon with divider for them later but have not gotten a lid for it yet. The 30 breeder has a locking lid so that's why I was looking to use that one. Feeding every five days will be tough for me since the store and my hours only coinside one day per week - Wednesday. All the other shops only sell F/T. My hubby says no rodents living in the house unless they are in the freezer or in the snake - tehe. I will have to think about that one.

[Ladybugzcrunch]

Hi most will tell you that they should be separated asap. I tend to agree with that wisdom, they will likely co habitat reasonable well but the downsides are if one is sick the other is suspect. It is impossible to keep accurate notes on defecation ect with two in one cage. I understand the space issue but I would try to find a resolution soon! If you are planning to breed you will have a bigger space issue at that point. Find a solution, racks or tubs new shelving but something.

Reading a snake is a challenge the s curve isn't always a prelude to a strike it can just be how she is sitting. Is she actively tongue flicking? A soft body and slower breathing is usually a relaxed posture, rapid breathing and tense muscles is not relaxed at all, the constant attempt to get away usually falls here too. The hunger response in my experience is being active roaming at night and sometimes dawn too. The sitting in ambush mode head out of hide just waiting can also be a signal of hunger, or not they are individuals I own a shy snake, an very inquisitive snake, a interested in new things but not too adventurous snake and a lap snake who will sit and chill for hours and make no attempt to leave. They all have differing responses to things.

I would really recommend some books, www.reptileknowledge.com offers a nice ebook for a reasonable price. The ball Python manual Philippe De Vosjoli, Art of keeping snakes also be Philippe De Vosjoli, Ball Pythons by Bartlett and Bartlett are all good and fairly prices books that are easily available amazon I think has all of them.
Good Luck Hope this helps,
Alex

Interesting post. Both have long tongue flicks which I heard was a sign of happiness. She seems to have no intention of leaving my hand and will sit there until I take her off. She does seem to breath slowly now that you mention it. Neither have struck at me so maybe she is just more relaxed. Thanks for the input.

[cinderbird]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Cinderbirds canned replies! Please take what you read in the LONG below posts with a grain of salt as they were initially intended as responses for other threads but apply to this one as well. Enjoy the novel and then back to your regularly scheduled bp.net posts of goodness.

To quote another post on the exact same topic (PS: search feature is your friend). Take this post with a grain of salt, but please understand why it is better for your animals to each have a home, than to have to share one. (This post was also made for someone who was already housing animals together).

NO, you should not.

it is NOT good for the animals to be housed together. There are a multitude of reasons for this, including but not limited to the following;

1. You didnt quarantine your new addition and if its carrying something, chances are your older animal has it too anything from parasites, worms, sickness and disease, (even if there arent any symptoms yet)

2. Did you get these animals sexed from a reliable source? Or are you trusting the pet store.. This means you could have two opposite genders and you have the chance that they could now breed early causing the female (if one is a female) problems and possibly killing her

3. Cannibalism is known to occur in a few documented cases involving BPs

4. If one of your animals is sick, you probably wont know which one because you cant tell their feces/urates/regurges apart

5. If one gets sick, they both get sick and now you have to spend 2x the amount of money in vet care.

6. Actions we see as "cuddling" are actually one snake competing with the other. They both may be eating fine now but how long is that going to last? The smaller one is especially at risk for stress which could lower immune levels. They will constantly be competing for the best hide spots and best heating spots, etc.

housing two animals in one enclosure when they arent social isnt something novice keepers should do. Each animal should have their own space to thrive. If cost is the problem then maybe you need to take one back or rehome him until you can provide a sutible environment for any animal that comes into your home.

OK, so i notice a ton of threads on here about "omg my snake wont eat." Ive compiled some info on fixing this issue. (Please excuse my run on sentences). Oh, and all this stuff has to do with F/T feeders unless otherwise noted.

The following information can be used after ruling out the other causes for refusals : PLEASE check the sticky care sheet for that info. ( your enclosure is appropriately sized for the snake, the temperatures and humidity are in the proper range and being measured with proper probes and temp units, hides are tight fitting and opaque etc).

- stress due to enclosure size
- stress due to frequent handling
- having the enclosure in a high traffic area
- etc.



FEEDING:

Feeder Quality
The quality of your feeders matters. I had some older feeders who were not in the best shape, I got new much better looking, smelling and appearing feeders from a few vendors at a local show and it REALLY showed when i went to feed my snakes with these new feeders. Personally, if i have a refusal i don't re-freeze the rodent. I use quite a bit of time to defrost so i dont trust them. Luckily, i have a garbage disposal of a spider female and just give her the left overs.

When picking out feeders, look for clean whole animals (the occasional rodent missing a tail tip or foot is completely acceptable, as is the occasional urine stain especially on a white mouse or rat. Or a few poops). Rodents, even frozen ones do SMELL rodent-y. Its like an earthy musty smell. When the rodents smell FOUL you want to discard them.

Anyway, onto the more useful info:

PRE SCENT PRE SCENT PRE SCENT.
Pre scenting, i have noticed, will trigger most snakes to go into feeding mode. What I do personally, is stick the mice and rats im going to feed my snakes into an empty tub in their rack (i feed frozen thawed and happen to have empty rack space in my rack). I let the rodents defrost for about 5 hours or more. The larger items go over the heat tape, the smaller ones don't have to. I then take out a hair dryer and give all the rodents a quick blast with it on low. I usually have the hair dryer on, but not directly on the rodents because you dont want to cook them. Within 30 seconds all my snakes are out cursing their enclosures looking for food.

Other methods of presenting are leaving the rodents to thaw near the enclosure of the snake. Weather it be a live rodent or defrosting in a baggie with warm water and leaving the corner of the baggie open.

Always make sure your rodents are warm enough. They should feel warm to the touch (not hot, not cold). And make sure they are thoroughly defrosted. You can check this by squeezing the ribs and stomach of the rodent lightly. If you get give the rodent is defrosted. If you squeeze and you dont feel any movement of the ribs, then the rodent is not yet defrosted .

SWITCHING PREY TYPES and SCENTING:
Ball pythons can be pretty picky when it comes to their food. If they like mice, sometimes they want to stay on mice, but you want to move them to rats (for whatever reason you choose).

Always try just feeding the wanted prey type first, you'd be surprised how many snakes just don't care and smell "rodent" instead of individualizing, and end up eating.

If you feed F/T, defrost 2 prey items that together reach the size of the prey item you want to feed your snake. Have one of them be the first prey type, and the other be the second prey type. Take the first prey item (hereby called mouse) and rub it all over the second prey item (we'll call that one rat). I usually try to rub the head, belly and genital area of the mouse on the rat. I don't really know rodent anatomy other than the gross anatomy stuff but i assume rodents have scent glands in their faces and genital areas. Do this pretty liberally. You might not be able to discern a difference between the two, but your snake may. Try to offer the rat (second item) once you've done this. If the snake doesn't take it, try rubbing the mouse on the rat some more (this is called scenting). Try offering it again (make sure it is warm, the item may have cooled off by now).

Hopefully the snake will take it, if not, offer the first prey item first (mouse). Let the snake eat that item. Once it has finished and realigned its jaws offer the second item. Since the snake is in feeding mode, it may take the rodent since it already smells vaguely of its preferred type.

If this doesn't work, try it again at the next feeding. If you have to skip a feeding session to try to switch your snake it is ok. These snakes eat much more often in captivity than they do in the wild. Baby snakes can go with skipping a meal every once in a while. Until your snake switches, keep scenting the rodent by rubbing it with the other prey type.

With older, more established animals, skipping a few feeding sessions may be in order. Be aware that there are some snakes that will never switch. They would rather starve than eat prey type two.

Adult Animals
Sexually mature ball pythons (both males and females) usually go off feed during breeding season. These animals have enough energy stored so they can safely not eat for months. Personally, I have had a snake go off food for 5 months, be picky for another 2, then eat with gusto. Over this time, this 1100 gram snake lost maybe 100 grams. This is within the acceptable range. Don't fret if your 2,3 or 20 year old BP stops eating around November (in the northern hemisphere). Offer food a few times a month and when they are ready they will begin eating again.

Starting Babies
So, you just got your first ball python, its a cute little baby that weighs about 60 grams. Its head might be a little funny shaped because its thin, and it has a triangle look to its body where its spine is a little more apparent than it should be. You offer it a F/T rat, and when it dosen't take it, you worry.

It is possible to get an unstarted baby without realizing it. Most responsible breeders will make sure their babies have fed at least 2 times before selling them, but not every breeder or pet store is like this.

Let your baby settle in for 7 days with no handling except for cage maintenance (cleaning or weighing). After this 7 day period, I suggest offering a live hopper or small adult mouse. Remove any cage furniture that the rodent can hide in like vines or the second hide. Prescent the room by leaving the rodent in a secure container with a few air holes in it so your snake can smell it.

Introduce the rodent into the side of the enclosure OPPOSITE from the one your snake is on. Your snake will most likely be in its hide. The snake should get interested in the prey item but it will be unsure of itself. The process of striking, coiling and eating may take an hour or more for the snake to really figure it out. Just trust your snake. They are little predators and instinctively should know what to do. Dont leave your snake unattended with a live rodent. I keep a pair of hemostats handy just to keep a bitey rodent from snacking on my snake.

I would offer a live prey item to the snake at the next feeding. Then, at the third feeding, if you want to try switching your snake to F/T you can try it.

Pre scent (! ) youre prey item, make sure it is dry and offer it to your snake off of hemostats. Hold the prey item with the hemostats near the scruff or the shoulder blades. If your snake takes it off the hemostats, congrats! If not, try doing the zombie dance. The zombie dance is moving the rodent in natural ways simulating life so that your snake thinks the prey is alive. Move the rodent slowly, and dont harass the snake with it (ie, don't bump your snake in the nose or body with the rodent). If your snake is in feeding mode you'll be able to tell. (Intent stare, flickering tongue, "s" curve in the neck). If they are in feeding mode, you will probably elicit a feeding strike. If your snake strikes and constricts, give the tail of the rodent a few tugs to simulate struggling. This will further ingrain the feeding response and help to curb any spitting out of the rodent.

Once your snake strikes and constricts, leave it alone in a dim room. Keep an eye on it but don't pester it much. If you bother your snake too much it may spit out the prey item.

I'll be adding to this thread as i figure out more information. Hopefully this will shed some light on helping these sometimes stubborn snakes eat.


To respond to your actual post:

spiders do have pattern almost all the way around their heads. Snakes flick their tongues to get information about their environment, it has nothing to do with their moods or happiness levels.

I would get each in their own 6quart container. A 30gal, even divided is waaay to big for a baby. I put hatchlings in 6 or 15quart containers.

They are ball pythons, I feed mine when they want to eat; with babies its every 5-7 days, adults every 7-10 or so.

[Ladybugzcrunch]

Okay I took some pictures. Please let me know what you think. I think the spider is about to go into shed. His belly is pinkish and his color seems duller than yesterday. His eyes have not clouded yet though. The phone is for scale.

[Ladybugzcrunch]

Anyone?

[dr del]

Hi,

They look nice.

The spider might well be going into shed - a few more days should let you be certain.


dr del