Should there be a debate about captive bread vs. Wild caught?

[anatess]

I went to a few breeders websites and went to the store that had just received 5 wild caught baby pythons. I found the one I wanted and yes it was a wild caught ball python from Africa... I did not listen and I was holding and loving on my new baby from day 1.

My wife who fell in love with Samara in just 2 weeks had found a ball python that was captive breed about 6 months later. Sahara was 1 and half when we adopted her. Sahara had also lived in a cage with other pythons and she was vey nippy at first.

(emphasis mine)

Samara, the bolded part of your post above is more than likely the reason why your wild caught/captive hatched is better adjusted than your captive bred.

Wild caught specimens are usually adult or sub-adult when they enter the U.S. At that time, the drastic change from the wild to a captive facility then over to shipment and finally to a guy's home is a lot of change for a wild caught that causes it a lot of stress.

Captive bred specimens don't have as drastic a change to their environment.

Also, for nature preservation/conservation purposes, we prefer to keep wild population as untouched as possible except for purposes of introducing new genes to the captive pet industry. As Brian Barczyk of BHB Reptiles (Snakebytes.tv) always says - "Conservation through captive propagation". So we discourage wild caught specimens for pets. We encourage captive bred for pets and leave the wild caught to the breeders to diversify the gene pool.

Hope this helps you see a different perspective on things.

[sarahlovesmiike]

I love Bread.

HAHAHAHA

[Oxylepy]

With all due respect, you can't really draw those types of conclusions with a base sample of TWO animals.

And why are you putting your snake's head in your mouth?

I do it. If they get close to my mouth I mess with them by going "Om" and just grab their heads with my mouth for a second. Mind that I also kiss my snakes and will "om" their bodies if they wrap around my head and put their bodies there. They dont get hurt, I risk salmonella, and it's kind of cute.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Yeah, there are desperate problems with this entire story.

As has been pointed out, Captive Hatched is NOT the same as Wild Caught.

Your captive-hatched ball python was born in a pit. Hundreds of clutches of eggs were found in the wild and taken from their mothers, then they were placed in a big pit together to incubate. Once the babies emerged, they were promptly sorted, bagged up, and shipped to the US. Once here, an importer opened up the bags, discarded the dead ones, and put the live ones into large enclosures with water to rehydrate.
Here, they were further sorted--anything interesting was weeded out to be sold separately. In some facilities, they were sexed, while others did not bother.

At this point, most of the babies had shed out. They were then shipped off to retailers (such as the pet store you got yours from). Many of them were never offered a meal, or never accepted a meal, before they arrived at the pet store. (Some importers/distributers feed hatchlings, some don't--often it depends on how long they're there before they are sold).

So you see, from day one, your little CH baby was subjected to overcrowding and tremendous stress. It is a testament to the hardiness of ball pythons that it has done so well for you.

The little CBB baby, on the other hand, was lovingly nursed along from the moment it hatched, and given the best of anything. If it didn't feed on its own, it was assist-fed until it did. No reputable breeder houses hatchling snakes in groups, so it's likely that its care wasn't top notch beyond that, however. It certainly doesn't sound like it was handled.

Some CBB baby ball pythons are finicky eaters, and perhaps not as strong as an established CH. This is because any weak CH hatchlings died in the bags on the way from Africa...not because CH babies are stronger in general.
What's more, a higher proportion of CH babies fail to eat, and most will perish in the hands of inexperienced keepers. You got the cream of the CH crop, and you got a CBB that most would consider undesirable (which is why it was sold at over a year old). Hardly a fair comparison.

You should be comparing a great CH with a great CBB. I think you will find that if any difference exists, it is in favor of the CBB, not the CH.

I do hope you had your snakes checked for parasites before you decided to house them together.

[bad-one]

And why are you putting your snake's head in your mouth?

Yeah, I just think of how my snakes "paint" their enclosures with their lovely presents. I'm not much of a clean freak but snakes are not sanitary creatures imo.

You should be comparing a great CH with a great CBB. I think you will find that if any difference exists, it is in favor of the CBB, not the CH.

I completely agree with this!

[PixieMaple]

I love bread, too... with peanut butter and jelly...
Though, I think I'll keep my snake's head out of my mouth

[Moofins07]

I love bread, too... with peanut butter and jelly...
Though, I think I'll keep my snake's head out of my mouth

Totally unrelated but: Bahahahah! I love your display picture!

[redstormlax12]

So my wife was not a huge fan of snakes since her father had 5 Argentina Boa’s that were about 16 feet long

How has no one pointed this out? Haha. A 16 foot argie? I find that impossible to believe. A 10 foot argie is huge for the species, let alone 16 feet.

Back to the rest of the post.

This "studying" you have done was on 2 animals. One captive hatched, another CBB that sounded like a rescue. And this has only been going on for a couple of years? A true study that could hold any merit would span around 20 years, and hundreds of animals to have any credibility.

So we put both in the same cage and Sahara started to eat normally

I havent seen anyone point this out either.

Putting two snakes in the same cage is not a good idea. Even extremely experienced breeders or hobbyists wouldn't think about keeping multiple snakes together unless breeding, even then the time together are usually relatively short. Keeping two snakes together can cause disease and illness to spread. Also if one has a bowel movement and its not so regular, whos to say which one has the problem? If one gets mites, they both get mites. I highly suggest seperating the snakes. If you think the ball will only eat and feel secure with other BP's, i feel you are mistaken. These are not social creatures and when people think they are "cuddling" or "snuggling" they are actually competing for the same spot to thermoregulate.

While Sahara lives most of her life in the water and no she does not have any pesticides

Im guessing you mean endo-parasites such as mites and tics. Excessive soaking is not always an indication of mites or tics, but an indication of improper temps. She may be trying to cool down because the cage is too hot, or she cannont properly thermoregulate because the other ball is taking up the room in that hide.

Also an active BP is usually stressed or hungry. A healthy BP is a ball that sits in his hide almost all day, eats regularly, fully sheds, defecates, and urinates.

Bringing your snakes into petsmart, petco, for hikes can put it at risk for contracting disease, parasites and other illnesses. While many people bring their snakes outside for a little sun and fresh air, and usually a photo shoot, bringing them to public places like petco and petsmart, which dont always have the best husbandry, can lead to an unhealthy BP. Now I do take my snakes outside into my yard and I dont disagree with some outside time, its just the places you are taking them I have to disagree with.

Now for the head in the mouth. This puts you and your BP at risk. What if she decided to tag you and grabbed onto the side of your mouth? Your first reaction would be to pull away, causing many of her teeth to be ripped out, leaving open sores for infection to settle in. Now you'll have plenty o' teeth to pick out, meaning a trip to the hospital, this could cost you a pretty penny just because you had your BP in your mouth. Also what if this got to the press? They would most likely blow it way out of proportion and provide more bad publicity for us. Yes this scenario is a little extreme but also extremely plausible.

Another thing that could happen if you contracting a parasite. Most parasites are extremely host specific but some will be able to take hold in a human. Have you seen some of the parasites our herps could be carrying. Ill tell you one thing, they're not pretty, and can cause severe illness, resulting in more expensive medical bills for you.

Now I dont mean to bash on you, and I apologize if I come off that way, but there are many things to comment in this thread and I feel like i needed too, for your safety and for your herps safety.

[wilomn]

Anybody ever wonder if there's a club somewhere or maybe a league, where just for fun, or maybe for asspoints, members come here, or to other sites, and instigate?

I mean really, did any of you take this seriously?

[Oxylepy]

Anybody ever wonder if there's a club somewhere or maybe a league, where just for fun, or maybe for asspoints, members come here, or to other sites, and instigate?

I mean really, did any of you take this seriously?

I was part of one of these sites a while back, LUElinks, an offshoot of LUE from gamefaqs. A lot of people would get together and just go out and be jerks at deserving sites (for instance there was a website filled with people trying to get AIDS or to infect other people with it, raided them until the server died, and I think the site got shut down).