Opinions on breeding young / small females

[DJ_Bizarre]

I have yet to ever breed but I am going to say 1500g from what I read is a safe bet. I mean if you are the type of person to push it then fine but just know that you may be risking your pet's life. I wouldnt do anything under 1200 because that just seem waaaaaay to low.

[ClarkT]

How do you go about getting the egg(s) out of one that has become egg bound?

Also, on the OP subject, I have a 5 yr. old reduced pattern normal. I got her about 6 weeks ago. She had been fed every 2-6 months, because they thought she was a picky eater. The fact is, though, her conditions were never quite right. (she was kept in a glass tank -- lol) Her conditions are spot on now. She's in a glass enclosure, but I'm setting up a 41 qt. tub so she can be more comfortable.

Anyway, I've gotten her to eat a small rat every 2 weeks, and I'm hoping she'll increase to every week, soon. She's only 2-1/2' long. I'll be weighing her today. She's very small. She looks about the size of most of the 6-12 mo. old snakes I've seen on various sites.

With her being 5 years old, what's the opinions here if I tried breeding at 1200 grams?

[TessadasExotics]

Don't know the answer to the egg bound question.

I would wait untill she hit 2-3k myself. Why rush her? With her age, if she waited till she was 3k, she would probably put out 10+ eggs

[sho220]

All three of my females are '08 babies and I bred all three this year. Only two produced clutches. One was four eggs, the other five eggs. The two that produced were around 1400-1500 grams. The one that didn't was about 2000 grams. I have about 10 days until the second clutch hatches. It will be interesting to see if their future clutches are the same size (in quantity, not egg weight). I don't think the females size or age affect the weight of the eggs all that much. I think if they were on a good feeding schedule and have a good body weight the eggs will be healthy and average size/weight.

[boasandballs]

Its better safe than sorry to wait. Besides most will take the next year. I have done it both ways and the way I see it is.

young female 4 eggs
next year 0
next year 6

older female
second year 6-8
next year 8-9

Now in the 3 years the younger female had 10 and the older had as many as 16

[WingedWolfPsion]

My 1500 gram girls tend to lay 5 or 6 eggs their first year. The only undersized female clutch I have seen (not one of mine) was 4 very undersized eggs. One died, 2 are still limping along, 1 seems ok. (I bought the girl and I'm incubating her clutch for the prev owner).

Once the girls are between 1600 and 2000 grams, I get 6 to 8 eggs from them. Over 2000 to 3000, I get 8 to 12 eggs. Over 3000, sometimes I get even more (my largest clutch to date was 13 eggs from a 3600 gram female).

The faster I can get a girl to grow, the more eggs I get. Breeding a girl under 1500 grams is not worth it, because she is unlikely to both regain her weight AND grow significantly over the course of the year, so you lose out. I like to get my females stabilized before the breeding season starts--fattened up to a proper good weight, and then slow the feeding a bit. We know how 800 to 1400 gram girls like to go off feed over the winter--I let them rest, I don't breed them. Spring comes, and they take off eating like crazy, and then I get big healthy clutches from them the next season.

It's worked for me--this year I have had only 3 slugs, ALL of the females I expected to lay did lay, and I have not lost a single egg in incubation so far. (I also did not cool for more than 5 degrees or longer than 1 week last fall).

It has been a very wet and stormy spring and summer here so far, and this may be contributing to the high fertility and breeding rate.

[j_h_smith]

I think it will also depend on the breeder's morph we're talking about. Some new, untested morph will probably be bred closer to 1000-1200 grams than a run of the mill morph. Waiting another year to get more breeding stock could cost the breeder thousands of dollars. Like someone else said a few pages back, you need to know your snakes.


Jim Smith

[koloo921]

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

I am pretty new to ball pythons. I would not breed a young female under 1000 grams, but you hit the nail on the head with this discussion! All the advice that I have read in the forums or learned from breeders is different. Weather it be breeding or general care. It seems that everyone does things their own way with ball pythons. I like that. Their really is not a right or wrong. Its what works and what does not work.

Back to the topic. A female that is under 1000 grams is going to be raped in the wild weather she is ready or not. She is going to go or she is not. If she gets egg bond she won't produce a future generation. It's evolution at it's best. Only the strong will survive. Not saying everyone should breed a underweight female just wanted to give you something to think about.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Actually, not so much so. Male ball pythons aren't interested in females that aren't putting out the right pheromone signatures. They won't even bother to court them in most cases.

Ball python males cannot hook up with an uncooperative female. So, females breed in the wild when their bodies feel they are ready to, and not before.

[fishboyUK]

Actually, not so much so. Male ball pythons aren't interested in females that aren't putting out the right pheromone signatures. They won't even bother to court them in most cases.

Ball python males cannot hook up with an uncooperative female. So, females breed in the wild when their bodies feel they are ready to, and not before.

So a smaller female is unlikely to be accepting to a male and become gravid, unless she is ready and putting out the right pheremone signals. Unless your male is particularly rapey, like my enchi