Hidden genes

[m00kfu]

I've been very curious about the womas myself. Did NERD produce the pearl from HG womas, or from womas? What happens when you cross a HG woma with a woma?

The pearl is the super form of NERD's HG womas. There is no super form of the 'regular' womas.

[BAMReptiles]

Not sure what you mean ... To me the "platty" gene seems to be the most "hidden" of them all, from what I've read ..!

I didn't mention platty 'cos it seems to be a totally different situation from that of the HG woma and the HG Citrus ... The platty gene actually does seem to be kind of a "hidden" one since as you say, the platty carriers DO apparently just look like normals (at least as far as I know, unless there's some secret marker trait that we all aren't privy to ... )

i meant i wouldnt use the "" since the animal that carries the gene looks normal, thus making it a hidden gene lol

[BAMReptiles]

Possibly. But the Woma mutation also looks very similar to the spider mutation, and spider is homozygous lethal also.

as far as i know thats only speculated, got any proof?

[RandyRemington]

as far as i know thats only speculated, got any proof?

Maybe we should assume any new dominant mutation is homozygous lethal until it's proven not to be just to be safe? Not trying to be snide, just thinking that might be the best way to look at it. Same for if both genders of any new mutation can reproduce; assume sterile until proven otherwise.

So do I understand right that the "original" woma that produced the pearl which appears to be homozygous lethal (lives a little while first) is what is now called HG woma? But the animals that where sold as woma and now called just woma are a different mutation that we don't know yet what happens to the homozygous version? Have many woma X woma breedings been done yet? Maybe the homozygous woma don't even make it as far as hatching. Or maybe it is completely dominant like pinstripe and someone will eventually prove a woma from woma X woma to be homozygous.

Both mutations are apparently still great for combos, just maybe avoid breedings with HG woma on both sides. But would be nice if one or both mutations would get a new name.

[WingedWolfPsion]

So, has it been confirmed that the Woma has no super form?

If so, that would make it like spider--co-dominant homozygous lethal.

If it has a super that looks like a regular woma, then it would be dominant, not co-dominant.

[rabernet]

Possibly. But the Woma mutation also looks very similar to the spider mutation, and spider is homozygous lethal also.

Do you have any conclusive facts that the spider is homozygous lethal, or is that simply your theory? I think stating that as fact without any real evidence (other than your previously stated presumption that since a super hasn't been produced, they MUST all die in the egg) takes quite a few liberties with presumptions and anecdotes.

[RandyRemington]

But my point is that presuming spider or any other mutation without a proven homozygous version isn't homozygous lethal is taking the same liberties.

Unless you get apparent homozygous animals that all die like the HG woma it’s very hard to prove a homozygous lethal . The much easier thing would be to prove that they aren’t homozygous lethal by proving a homozygous spider. But 21 years into the spider project still no public homozygous so who knows.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

So, has it been confirmed that the Woma has no super form?

If so, that would make it like spider--co-dominant homozygous lethal.

If it has a super that looks like a regular woma, then it would be dominant, not co-dominant.

I'm not hugely convinced.

I figure, even if enough people have done woma x woma (regular-style) breedings to state conclusively that there is no visually distinct homozygous form (which I'm not even 100% convinced of), I just can't imagine that enough people have held back a sufficient number of the woma babies from those breedings and bred them to normals enough times to prove that they're all heterozygous and that, therefore, there are NO homozygous animals and they must all be dying in the egg.

I mean, heck, the spider morph has been around for -- 21 years, wow, really?! -- and is immensely popular, with 100's if not 1000's of breeders working with spiders (at least a few of whom are probably doing spider x spider breedings, whether as a deliberate test or out of ignorance of the suspected homozygous lethal condition) and we STILL can't all agree whether or not they're homozygous lethal.

As was already stated, without a pile of dead babies to point to it's tough to conclusively prove the homozygous lethal condition. I guess you could calculate out statistically how many spiders out of spider x spider breedings you'd have to prove heterozygous in order to suggest strongly that there were no homozygous spiders ... Or, you could breed spider x spider, US for follicles early on, wait until after fertilization and US again to see how many follicles resorbed. A consistent 25% resorption rate with spider x spider versus controls might suggest homozygous lethal ... But again, it doesn't prove anything.

[J.Vandegrift]

But my point is that presuming spider or any other mutation without a proven homozygous version isn't homozygous lethal is taking the same liberties.

Unless you get apparent homozygous animals that all die like the HG woma it’s very hard to prove a homozygous lethal . The much easier thing would be to prove that they aren’t homozygous lethal by proving a homozygous spider. But 21 years into the spider project still no public homozygous so who knows.

Obviously it would be tough to prove, but wouldn't you see a lot of eggs that go bad in spider x spider clutches if they were homo leathal? I know there may not be too many people doing spider x spder clutches, but there must have been at least a few at this point. Would you consider a pinstripe to be Homo leathal as well?

[RandyRemington]

I believe BHB has proven a homozygous pinstripe and reports it’s looking the same as the hets so the first proven completely dominant ball python mutation.

I did get an e-mail once from a large well known breeder providing results from one spider X spider clutch. Of 8 fertile eggs, exactly 1/4 where smaller and didn't hatch. Just one clutch so could just be a co-incidence. They where planning to try more spider X spider breedings the next year but I didn't check back to see how that went or if any of the now 3 year old babies from that first clutch have been bred and proven homozygous or not homozygous.