The Pine Debate

[Skiploder]

All of my rats are kept on pine (pellets for adults, shavings for nursing moms and babies) - none wheeze or snuffle, and my oldest was almost four years old before she died. I personally have seen no negative effects of using pine bedding for any of my rodents. In addition, it cuts the smell much better than aspen does.

I also keep many hundreds of rats on regular pine and have for 5+ years generation after generation with many of them as pets that are my wifes personal favorites. Never have had any respitory problems whatsoever.

Now what does cause respitory problems is keeping rodents in enclosed tanks with little ventilation caused by the the fumes from their constant peeing and pooping. The bedding is irrelevant. Some could very easily blame the bedding but the reality is they need cages with screened or grated tops that allow alot of air circulation.

I have seen several theories on the internet that are based on assumptions more than facts, for instance, dont feed in the enclosure because they will bite you whenever you open the cage. This is bunk but still is believed and preached passionately by many.

I am a fulltime newspaper guy for BP's now but have kept my kings on dried pine and aspen with the same results, perfectly fine.

I dont use dried pine on the rats (even hairless) and for many years and have never had any problems at all, ever.

For snakes I would say only dried pine and you are fine, rodents either one

Your first sentence is a flat out lie. I've got over 100 adults here you can come listen to any time you like. They've never been on anything but pine. I've got to be 30 generations on pine.

You second sentence is pure balderdash. You may have studies to back it up but as has been said, kraplan isn't known for accuracy, honesty or intelligence. I've had pet rats live 3 or 4 years on pine.

Do you have ANY personal experience with it?

As far as your scientists and measurements go, I may not be going to that extreme but my snakes eat, breed, move, live long lives and have multiple generations all while living on pine from hatchling to old age. I have decades of experience with, as I said, thousands of snakes. My information, though it directly contradicts what you regurgitate, is true, accurate and time tested.

Look at the dozens of people who have come forward on this thread citing the horrors of pine bedding and it becomes obvious you three have all had rare streaks of luck.......

.......year after year after year after year........

[rabernet]

It's amazing to me that you have rats with no respiratory problems at all--since they all carry mycoplasma. Unless you got yours from a special laboratory, delivered by C-section.

It amazes you that mine don't wheeze and snuffle on pine because they all carry mycoplasma?

You argue that pine causes wheezes and snuffles (have you ever tried it with your rats?), but then in the next breath are amazed that mine do not on pine - because they all carry mycoplasma. By that argument, they would wheeze and snuffle on any bedding.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Occasionally, one would expect it--most any immune challenge can trigger a myco flare up.
It's a compliment, actually--you must take excellent care of your rats to have avoided this.

Actually, I keep my rats on pine. I see a lot less snuffles since I stopped adding new animals to the colony, but I do spot some occasionally. I have 1 3/4 full racks of rats, though.

It's the most economical choice for rats, which are all fed off before they're a full year old anyhow. Scientific studies show that pine releases toxins--some individual animals will be able to withstand that better than others, so I'm not surprised that you get the occasional elderly rat, even on pine.

[wilomn]

occasional elderly rat, even on pine.

Occasional? As in not very often? As in changing what someone else wrote to suit your side of the argument?

Well, that does seem to be all you have in your arsenal....

[CoolioTiffany]

A while back I heard something about a snake swallowing some of the pine bedding and the snake ended up acting odd with CNS problems.

Not sure if that would be caused from the pine, or from a disease.

I don't want anyone to take that story and immediately believe that, "Oh, that's evidence!" because it doesn't prove much since I didn't hear about a necropsy done with the snake after it died.

[mainbutter]

Skip I think your original post nailed one of the big points.. people confuse pine and cedar.

[WingedWolfPsion]

A quick internet search will reveal the results from experiments with keeping rodents on pine versus other beddings.

There is a reason why the keepers of high-end show rats and mice do not use pine.

For feeders, it doesn't matter. But I don't trust pine for my valuable snakes, because even a small chance of a toxic reaction from it is too much chance.

I'm not sure what people think I'm lying about. Google is your friend, go look it up. .edu sites are best.

[j_h_smith]

I'm going back almost 20 years, but I seem to remember that pine itself wasn't the issue, but pine needle bedding. Maybe I'm losing it, but I seem to remember the offending bedding was pine needle bedding.

As for pine shaving bedding, as long as it has the resin cooked out of it, I'm sure it should be fine. I would think that the pine resin would be hazardous to more than just snakes and other reptiles. After getting the resin on my hands, I couldn't imagine injesting that stuff.

I have no chemical analysis but just the stickiness of the resin would have ill effects on the digestive system.

Just my opinion!
Jim Smith

[Raptor]

I kept pet hamsters on cedar. Not pine, cedar. From what I've heard, cedar is thee worst of the bunch, or at least, is as "evil" as pine. I never got a single repiratory issue. They all lived long lives. Most of them ended up dieing from tumors..But that seems to be a common problem with hamsters.

[kitedemon]

Hmm I am going to add my two cents to this. I don't know for sure but as I found this interesting I asked a colleague of mine and was told two things of interest. If it smells of pine it has phenols. He didn't know of any studies with reptiles but here is an article on human studies.

https://ietd.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstre...llchapters.pdf

"Workers exposed to pine and fibre dust have more respiratory problems and a greater risk of airway obstruction, since their FVC showed a significant inverse correlation with exposure (Choubrace, 1991). Several types of wood dust, especially western red cedar wood, was reported to cause occupational asthma in carpenters and timber workers"

Raw pine has tons of studies that seem to point to toxic effects in mammals. I have not found any that state anything about kiln dried. The OHSS doctor I asked said if it smells of pine there is phenols I have found no hard evidence on that so it is up for debate. I don't know myself.

I remember when I was first working a guy I worked with up to his arm pits in PCBs. Now you need a has-mat suit. He still lives around the corner from my family s house and just turned 95. He worked with PCBs for 50 years. Times change and ideas change aluminum pots good or bad I don't know anymore. My point is ideas change.

The kiln dried pine debate is just that a debate. I know and can back up with articles that raw untreated pine has phenols and that phenols cause respiratory issues in mammals. I also know that most of the wood in my house is rough pine and I don't have respiratory problems.

Most of the people whom have posted keep their snakes on pine even if they don't know it. Newspaper is made of (in north america anyway) Pine and spruce with some hemlock, larch an bits of hardwoods too. White paper is bleached, but newsprint is just natural. Washed and dried, chewed up and a handful of other things but it is still wood in there. Is it toxic? I don't know either.

I think there is no conclusive proof with kiln dried pine, toxic or not. My worry would be am I sure it is kiln dried and not air dried pine chips. I don't know if there is a way of telling and kiln drying is expensive and drying a low value product seems rather odd to me. I would be concerned with getting a mix. I certainly understand why it would be a great choice of bedding.

Alex