Snake Inbreeding?

[PassionsPythons]

How do you not understand what I said?

Normals as well as other morphs have been hatched with wobble. Did they have spiders in their ancestry?

What has been proven exactly? That all spiders have wobble? Yes. That it can't be passed to non spider offspring? No I don't think anyone has proven this.

Normal offspring produced from spider breedings (non spider babies), IMO, should not be used to breed into other morphs.

I am a firm believer that the spider wobble can be passed onto all spider offspring. Any offspring can potentially be a carrier for the mutated gene that causes the wobble.

That is my belief. You don't have to believe it. It has not been proven otherwise by any one.

Just like some people will try to argue that inbreeding doesn’t affect BP's. I as well as many others can put money on it that it does.

I'm not a geneticist, but as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble). Other animals that have a wobble didn't get their wobble from a spider down the line in it's ancestry... IMO. I believe the wobble found in other animals is a random anomoly that just happens..... Like bug eyes, or duck bills, etc. I know that some of the things I named are linked to specific morphs, but it can also happen to normal or wild type offspring too.

[stevepoppers]

Prepare for aimless rambling!

He does have a point. Though the wobble gene is linked to the spider gene, it is possible for them to become unlinked through yet another genetic mutation.

The thing with the wobbling normal in question is that there's no way to know why it's wobbling or why it's kinked. So, unless one wants to risk passing those traits onto any/all of it's offspring, one should not breed it. Does anyone really want a kinked snake? Do you want it to wobble?

I guess if it doesn't affect it's ability to eat, poop, and shed, there's nothing really wrong with it, though. It just looks or acts weird. It may eventually effect those things, though. Just no way to tell.

And that's the problem with the whole debate. There isn't really a way to tell the ill effects of inbreeding for a long, long time. Even in humans and dogs. Humans force every single one to persist no matter what, and reproduce if they get the opportunity. "Your entire family has cancer? Have all the kids you want!" I hear purebred dogs are borderline retarded after the several thousand years of human intervention. Eventually, harmful mutations WILL build up, even if we don't notice it. That's how we got our morphs in the first place. "Cool mutation? Pass it on!"

[TessadasExotics]

"as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble)."


I am pretty sure that when BP's are bred that more than just the alleles for the color/pattern are being handed down to the offspring. All genes are passed on. Just because the color/pattern gene wasn’t passed doesn’t mean that a bad/deformed gene wasn't.

Just food for thought. Its more than just the dominant/recessive "visual" genes that we as breeders are dealing with.

[PassionsPythons]

"as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble)."


I am pretty sure that when BP's are bred that more than just the alleles for the color/pattern are being handed down to the offspring. All genes are passed on. Just because the color/pattern gene wasn’t passed doesn’t mean that a bad/deformed gene wasn't.

Just food for thought. Its more than just the dominant/recessive "visual" genes that we as breeders are dealing with.

True True.

[PassionsPythons]

Prepare for aimless rambling!

He does have a point. Though the wobble gene is linked to the spider gene, it is possible for them to become unlinked through yet another genetic mutation.

The thing with the wobbling normal in question is that there's no way to know why it's wobbling or why it's kinked. So, unless one wants to risk passing those traits onto any/all of it's offspring, one should not breed it. Does anyone really want a kinked snake? Do you want it to wobble?

I guess if it doesn't affect it's ability to eat, poop, and shed, there's nothing really wrong with it, though. It just looks or acts weird. It may eventually effect those things, though. Just no way to tell.

And that's the problem with the whole debate. There isn't really a way to tell the ill effects of inbreeding for a long, long time. Even in humans and dogs. Humans force every single one to persist no matter what, and reproduce if they get the opportunity. "Your entire family has cancer? Have all the kids you want!" I hear purebred dogs are borderline retarded after the several thousand years of human intervention. Eventually, harmful mutations WILL build up, even if we don't notice it. That's how we got our morphs in the first place. "Cool mutation? Pass it on!"

I agree with you 100%! However, I do have a question for you. Who knows that these traits are passable? I mean has there been extensive research to prove that kinks, wobbles, duckbills, etc are passable from a wild type or normal animal? So why should anyone deprive these animals of their natural instinct to breed until it's proven that their kinks and wobbles are or are not hereditary? I mean we know that the spider wobble is definitely hereditary through spiders, but not so much with normals.

The reason I ask is this. I have a birthmark (port wine stain) that covers most of the left side of my face. As far as anyone knows birthmarks or port wine stains are not hereditary. I'm the only person in my family with one. I have 2 sons, neither of them have it. See my point. It's just something that happens. Most people have a birth mark and most are brown in color. Mine however is red. It's a completely different kind of birthmark. Like I said, I'm the only person in my family with one, on both sides for at least 3 generations. So it's obviously not hereditary or someone would have had one by now other than me... right?

[BAMReptiles]

a birth mark is different from a genetic disorder. its not coded into your genes, you cant pass it on.

as far as line/in breeding. i think youre alright for a few generations, but id try to mix it up when at all possible

and granted it would be possible for the wobble trait to become unlinked from the spider gene, as far as i know this hasnt happened yet and would probably be less likely than breeding 2 normals and getting and albino lol. so id say that the odds of getting a normal spider sib that wobbles are slim to none.

[stevepoppers]

It's more about the risk that these things are genetic. We just don't know, and it's up to the owner/breeder to decide what they think that risk is, and whether or not they want to take it. Birthmarks are proven to not be a genetic trait.

and granted it would be possible for the wobble trait to become unlinked from the spider gene, as far as i know this hasnt happened yet and would probably be less likely than breeding 2 normals and getting and albino lol. so id say that the odds of getting a normal spider sib that wobbles are slim to none.

Oh, of course the odds are very long, but isn't that how we got albinos in the first place?

[BAMReptiles]

pretty sure one was imported.....

but that is how all mutations come about. altho its quite very rare lol

[Beardedragon]

Off subject, but has there EVER been another W/C spider found, other than the original? Surely we didnt take the first and only one... Any news if there is if it had a wobble?

[Ssthisto]

Off subject, but has there EVER been another W/C spider found, other than the original? Surely we didnt take the first and only one... Any news if there is if it had a wobble?

I believe there's only ever been the one found.

And I asked Kevin at NERD whether the original spider wobbled - yes.