Snake Inbreeding?

[rabernet]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought a "wobble" was exactly that. I thought it was wobbling of the head of the snake. So noticeable that you would in fact say the snake had a "wobble". I would describe my snakes movements as more of a "spin". I didn't know that the both were considered the same thing.

Does this subside by introducing new bloodlines? Or is it just a typical trait that 99% of spiders have, just to a level of severity?

100% of spiders have it. Has nothing to do with line breeding or in breeding - it's one of the most outcrossed morphs, since there is no super and breeders just aren't breeding spider to spider.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Inbreeding:
Different species are affected to different degrees when inbred. It has a lot to do with how much genetic variation there is within the species--how 'delicate' their genes are when impacted by mutagens. The species with more delicate genes will be carrying more silent mutations--more recessive traits that aren't visible. Most mutations are lethal or harmful--that's across the board, in all species.
Species with more resilient genes will be carrying fewer mutations. These species will rarely show issues when inbred. Some species can withstand inbreeding for many generations before some mutation crops up and is reinforced to produce a negative effect.

Ball pythons are reasonably resilient. If you breed 2 siblings together, it's highly unlikely that something bad will crop up in the offspring. (It's still possible--it's also possible with unrelated animals). If you keep doing this over many generations, though, then eventually you're going to strike out.

This is why it's so important for the ball community to start keeping lineage records (and why I use iHerp for that purpose at the moment, until someone starts a registry, such as the one that exists for corn snakes).

The current habit of selling off 'just normals' in a big batch with no records is deplorable. It's going to bite the ball community in the hiney sooner or later. Many morphs are very inbred at present--and so are the normals that crop up from morph pairings.

At the moment, someone could pick up a normal female for outcrossing, and that female could be the sibling of their morph male, and they would never know it.

[TessadasExotics]

One thing that helps are having breeders like Outback (not sure who else does it) that imports baby's. I like there grab bag of 10 balls for 150 bucks. Delivered to you as they were packed in Africa. Now those are farmed in Africa so Its not nearly as good but its some thing.

[kilabyte]

Inbreeding:
Different species are affected to different degrees when inbred. It has a lot to do with how much genetic variation there is within the species--how 'delicate' their genes are when impacted by mutagens. The species with more delicate genes will be carrying more silent mutations--more recessive traits that aren't visible. Most mutations are lethal or harmful--that's across the board, in all species.
Species with more resilient genes will be carrying fewer mutations. These species will rarely show issues when inbred. Some species can withstand inbreeding for many generations before some mutation crops up and is reinforced to produce a negative effect.

Ball pythons are reasonably resilient. If you breed 2 siblings together, it's highly unlikely that something bad will crop up in the offspring. (It's still possible--it's also possible with unrelated animals). If you keep doing this over many generations, though, then eventually you're going to strike out.

This is why it's so important for the ball community to start keeping lineage records (and why I use iHerp for that purpose at the moment, until someone starts a registry, such as the one that exists for corn snakes).

The current habit of selling off 'just normals' in a big batch with no records is deplorable. It's going to bite the ball community in the hiney sooner or later. Many morphs are very inbred at present--and so are the normals that crop up from morph pairings.

At the moment, someone could pick up a normal female for outcrossing, and that female could be the sibling of their morph male, and they would never know it.

My normal Female which I have close to 3 months corkscrews from time to time. She also has a kinked tail. I'm wondering what her parents were. I got her from a pet store. She eats poops & sheds fine so far. She is up to 430 grams empty. I'm wondering what I should breed her to?

[Jeremy78]

My normal Female which I have close to 3 months corkscrews from time to time. She also has a kinked tail. I'm wondering what her parents were. I got her from a pet store. She eats poops & sheds fine so far. She is up to 430 grams empty. I'm wondering what I should breed her to?

If I were you I wouldn't breed her. A kinked tail and a wobble in a normal is a bad trait. But if you do breed her I would pass on the news of the deformity to the buyer. If it has 2 visible deformities imagine what's on the inside? For all you know it could have an enlarged heart and tiny liver making it's total lifespan like 5 years. Sorry if I come off harsh but for me quality is everything.

[TessadasExotics]

If I were you I wouldn't breed her. A kinked tail and a wobble in a normal is a bad trait. But if you do breed her I would pass on the news of the deformity to the buyer. If it has 2 visible deformities imagine what's on the inside? For all you know it could have an enlarged heart and tiny liver making it's total lifespan like 5 years. Sorry if I come off harsh but for me quality is everything.

This snake should NEVER breed! Not for any reason. I don't care what anyone else thinks about spiders and wobble, but I am pretty sure that it is a genetic fault that can be passed on to its offspring. Until it can be proved otherwise. All spider/spider-crosses should be monitored, if sold the genetics should be disclosed if not noticeable(visual spider cross), and should not be used to cross into other lines if not wanting the spider gene in the breeding.
Just my 2 cents

[kellysballs]

I am working with snake keeper line axanthics which is a recessive morph. This is a problem for me in trying to make sure that my animals are not to closley related. Unfortunatley ALL snake keeper line axanthic animals are related to a certain degree, yes some more and some less. I have purchased additional animals from other breeders to "out cross" my line but really you can only use that term loosley since they are all of the same line. I do track all my animals in a pedigree style format so at least I can know who is related to who in my collection. I have also bred daughter to sire last season to prove out a 50% het. In this clutch I produced one male pastel that had a misshaped head. The animal never ate and died about 3 weeks after hatching. So I feel these animals should never be bred to each other again and all of the resulting off spring should be out crossed. A good rule of thumb that I have heard from other breeders to out cross 2 generations before coming back to the line. Which means that the animals bred would share statistically 1/4 of their genes with each other. I am going to try to make sure that this is as "inbred" as I get from here on out. These are just my opinions but I am trying to make sure that the animals I breed from here on out are removed from each other as much as I can.

One thing that helps are having breeders like Outback (not sure who else does it) that imports baby's. I like there grab bag of 10 balls for 150 bucks. Delivered to you as they were packed in Africa. Now those are farmed in Africa so Its not nearly as good but its some thing.

I also LOVE to use CH/Farmed females for the exact reason stated above. Half of my collection are these animals.

[kilabyte]

If I were you I wouldn't breed her. A kinked tail and a wobble in a normal is a bad trait. But if you do breed her I would pass on the news of the deformity to the buyer. If it has 2 visible deformities imagine what's on the inside? For all you know it could have an enlarged heart and tiny liver making it's total lifespan like 5 years. Sorry if I come off harsh but for me quality is everything.

If I did breed her most likely I would be keeping her offspring. But if I did sell any of them I would disclose to the buyer the problem with the parent/s. With that said & after your sugggestion and reading other posts I most likely would not breed her having those defects. I hope she lives a long live she is such a sweet snake.I'm going to mention these defects to the pet shop owner whom I bought her from. I was very unaware of these defects when I bought her.

[OhhWatALoser]

you know im pretty much confused about everything you said. lemme break this down

I don't care what anyone else thinks about spiders and wobble, but I am pretty sure that it is a genetic fault that can be passed on to its offspring.

its linked to the spider gene, normals from spider breeding are fine as any other breeding. are you saying that you should tell people if their normals are from a spider breeding?

Until it can be proved otherwise.

it hasn't been proven? between big breeders and people on this forum i think its proven. Can you prove otherwise?

. All spider/spider-crosses should be monitored, if sold the genetics should be disclosed if not noticeable(visual spider cross)

Are you saying all offspring? and what do you mean by monitored? and why wouldn't you disclose the genetics? i mean the more genes the more the snakes worth.

and should not be used to cross into other lines if not wanting the spider gene in the breeding.

This I really don't understand, if you don't want a spider in your breeding, why would you use a spider. If your saying a spider sib, well you can't have the spider gene in your breeding, because the sib doesn't carry the gene.

[TessadasExotics]

How do you not understand what I said?

Normals as well as other morphs have been hatched with wobble. Did they have spiders in their ancestry?

What has been proven exactly? That all spiders have wobble? Yes. That it can't be passed to non spider offspring? No I don't think anyone has proven this.

Normal offspring produced from spider breedings (non spider babies), IMO, should not be used to breed into other morphs.

I am a firm believer that the spider wobble can be passed onto all spider offspring. Any offspring can potentially be a carrier for the mutated gene that causes the wobble.

That is my belief. You don't have to believe it. It has not been proven otherwise by any one.

Just like some people will try to argue that inbreeding doesn’t affect BP's. I as well as many others can put money on it that it does.