Anybody awake?

[Sariel]

I have to say Im in SkipLoders corner on this. <Unfortunate as that might be since Im not nearly as eloquent>

If facts where being taken into account by the people making the decisions then this would not be as much of an issue for us. I am fully of the mind that there should have been standards set for the sale of any non native reptile let alone potentially dangerous ones, long, long ago.

Simply because one animal is more dangerous than another does not instill in my mind that the former animal should be ignored, and promoting a pretense we should do so would immediately show poorly upon those who dont understand the hobby. IMO its as bad as the owner who insists their dog isnt capable of biting.
We QQ amongst ourselves constantly about poorly managed pet stores, owners grabbing up snakes for shock value before they have more then the rudimentary understanding on how to care for them. Then seem surprised and defensive when those outside our family take notice and -agree- as soon as something unfortunate happens.
Difference is, they don't share our affection for the hobby so it doesn't break their hearts to find the easier solution.

I find I could add a ton more to this so Im going to stop here in the interest of not flooding people out.

Though I will add a side note as far as the argument of dogs being a greater threat and not receiving the same attention, cause thats not true at all.
Fact is, it is starting to become more and more difficult to own dogs through laws, insurance companies, regulated communities and apartments. Whether or not you're a responsible owner.

[Skiploder]

Though I will add a side note as far as the argument of dogs being a greater threat and not receiving the same attention, cause thats not true at all.
Fact is, it is starting to become more and more difficult to own dogs through laws, insurance companies, regulated communities and apartments. Whether or not you're a responsible owner.

I own a stafforshire bull terrier. In some areas of this country it's illegal to own one. I pay extra on my homeowners insurance because of him.

Not directed at you Sariel but the argument often comes up that pet reptiles have killed far less people than pet dogs, pet llamas, pet rocks, etc.

Who cares?

When I was a kid, I remember my dad (who is a Vietnam combat vet) arguing with a veteran of WWII who was a friend of my grandfather.

This older gent had asked my dad about the Battle of Dak To. When my dad was explaining how horrible it was the WWII vet made a comment about how it couldn't have been that bad - that they total American loses in Dak To (entire battle) didn't even equal what his division lost in one hour in the Ardennes.

What sticks in my mind is that someone would dismiss the loss of one life as inconsequential. In some people's minds, the loss of 10 lives becomes negated if you compare it to the loss of 100. 100 becomes irrelevant when compared to 1000 and so on.

If 100,000 people a year die from domestic ferret maulings it should not negate the loss of 10 people killed by rabid clownfish. The argument for responsible ownership of clownfish should not be debated or put on the back burner because of the imminent ferret threat.

So in a ten year period, 150 die from death by dog. Eight die from death by reptile (Giant constrictor and Venomous Exotic). That 150 does not negate the 8. Period.

If only one person had ever died from a captive giant constrictor or venomous reptile, it should have been cause enough for people to call for restrictions on ownership. With the exception of USARK's legislation in North Carolina, the Reptile Nation has done nothing, proposed nothing to self-regulate ownership of dangerous animals.

[Sariel]

I own a stafforshire bull terrier. In some areas of this country it's illegal to own one. I pay extra on my homeowners insurance because of him.

Not directed at you Sariel but the argument often comes up that pet reptiles have killed far less people than pet dogs, pet llamas, pet rocks, etc.

Who cares?

.

I completely agree, I started to go into a small rant about that in my own post, but decided it was starting to get alittle off topic and soap boxy.

Ive never felt that one wrong becomes more right because something else is on a grander scale. Monetary loss, life loss, even just physical distress hurts someone. When that's preventable, especially on a smaller and more easily controlled scale, its unacceptable.

Im not on board for total banning by any means, but regulation is a very acceptable answer if it means that people who are responsible have the chance at ownership and it prevents more of the people who are not from doing so. Yes it will likely be expensive, and tedious, but since pet stores, importers, flippers and many breeders could care less who they sell too, then its an good alternative to overall banning.

[Dragoon]

people need to know this is all a red herring. from an environmental perspective even if you ban all non-native snakes the established population of invasive snakes are not going to stop and say,. "hey wait, we are now illegal, lets move to gorgia." They are building levies after the town was destroyed and claiming that they will undo what is already there. they might as well re-write history and say hurricane andrew never happened and all of the snakes will now disappear.

[Skiploder]

people need to know this is all a red herring. from an environmental perspective even if you ban all non-native snakes the established population of invasive snakes are not going to stop and say,. "hey wait, we are now illegal, lets move to gorgia." They are building levies after the town was destroyed and claiming that they will undo what is already there. they might as well re-write history and say hurricane andrew never happened and all of the snakes will now disappear.

Keep educating people. The reptile community has been "educating" people for the last year or so.

All that education got you 116 yeas to 0 nays in the House and 35 to 0 in the Senate and draconian legislation in Connecticut to boot. Your attempts at exposing the red herring aren't working.

Got any other bright ideas? Or is the plan to keep trying to educate people who aren't listening to a word you're saying?

[Dragoon]

i have educated quite a few as well as resolved unfounded fears in a number of people. unfortunately i am just one in a state where this isn't as big of a hot topic. closed minded people dont care about the online postings of some bum in wisconsin addressing flawed logic in their state. I'm stuck to the home front and talk to my congressional reps when the federal bans come into play.

[Skiploder]

i have educated quite a few as well as resolved unfounded fears in a number of people. unfortunately i am just one in a state where this isn't as big of a hot topic. closed minded people dont care about the online postings of some bum in wisconsin addressing flawed logic in their state. I'm stuck to the home front and talk to my congressional reps when the federal bans come into play.

Are you sure it's not being discussed in your state? The people of Connecticut were given quite a nasty surprise as have people in other states.

Rarely does the topic get the fanfare it's getting in Florida. Most times, it quietly slips under the table because most people are blissfully ignorant of the bills that their legislatures are passing.

[wolfy-hound]

What makes you think self-regulation is somehow going to stop them from banning more pets??
Florida HAS regulation restricting the reptiles that they just banned. Obviously pre-existing regulations from OFFICIAL sources did not stop them, and thinking that if we put rules on ourselves, they won't ban our pets is ridiculous.
Most reptile owners are responsible owners and responsible sellers. We cannot force a irresponsible owner from running down the street with a burm in his hands scaring people. We do our best to educate because that's what we CAN do.

What exactly are you saying the reptile hobby should do? If USARK managed to get the same stuff passed in Florida that they got passed in the carolina state, do you REALLY think that would have stopped this ban? When the state had it's OWN version(more restrictive than the USARK legislation in fact!) already in place?

Reptiles, and then later the rest of our pets, are on the way out. In ten years we'll be lucky if we can own a housecat, much less a "exotic" pet like a hamster or goldfish. I'll be there fighting all the legislation and attempting to educate folks and whatever else I can do to help, but down deep, I'm beginning to think it's a losing battle. I'm just going to make darned certain that I don't go down without trying my best to fight it.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that because a person dies, things have to be banned or regulated. People always find new and interesting ways to kill themselves, and if you went that route, EVERYTHING would be banned or regulated.

If a pet constrictor kills someone, that is terrible, but it was that person's choice to own one, and that person's choice to handle it improperly--the rest of the populace does NOT need to have their freedoms taken away simply because one individual was too stupid to live. (As for the kid in Florida, I personally believe the python was framed, and all the evidence really does point to that).

I think it's time for the reptile industry to do something it hasn't really done much of in the past.

Propaganda.

This is the weapon that is being used against us, and this truly is a situation where you have to fight fire with fire. The public's opinion is being swayed. If we want to sway it back, we had better open up our mouths and start getting loud about it.

I don't mean just basic education, but actual PROMOTION. Whether it feels like a good idea or not, it just might be the only way we will stand a chance in this war.

[Skiploder]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that because a person dies, things have to be banned or regulated. People always find new and interesting ways to kill themselves, and if you went that route, EVERYTHING would be banned or regulated..

You have a gift for taking someone's point of view and blowing it out of proportion.

Dangerous things should be regulated, not by the government but by the people who are fans of those things. Thats why I keep referring to self-regulation.

Giant constrictors and venomous snakes have no business being sold to anyone who can afford them. The first line of regulation is an ethical breeder or dealer. You can kiss that off in the reptile industry - we're famous for our scam and quick buck artists.

Yep, that first line is a joke in the reptile hobby.....a bad joke. I've kept and keep snakes that would easily fall under a future permit system. In fact I have one animal in my collection that I have to have a permit for in California.

I have no problem with this and would question the motives behind anyone who would balk at agreeing to register and purchase permits for dangerous animals - be it a pitbull or a puff adder.

Even the Reptile Nation - USARK, and PIJAC realize this. Problem is that many of you would rather sit back and talk tough while USARK and PIJAC have to deal with our bad rap and our bad publicity - earned or otherwise.

I am seeing more and more young people buying animals they cannot afford to maintain and have no clue as to what they are in for when that animal reaches adulthood. USARK and PIJAC have been stepping up to try to pass internal standards for care (caging and otherwise) for these animals and all I see them getting is a rash and a crap for their efforts.

The only time people root on USARK is when they are fighting legislation, not for their proactive efforts like North Carolina. Ditto for PIJAC.

I find it the height of hypocrisy that there are members on this forum who will one day shake their fists in rage at Craig's List "idiots" and then on the next day will actively support some newbie deciding to go buy a croc monitor on a whim.

So good luck with your propaganda campaign Donna (seriously). If you can get people to get off their lazy asses and stop posting their "fury" here instead of actually doing something to make a difference, I will gladly doff my hat to you.

Between the Florida House and Senate, the final tally was 151 to 0. Where in the hell was the vaunted Reptile Nation (not USARK)? Where were you people who are so willing to proclaim "they'll have to pry my animals out of my cold dead hands" while this bill was being debated back and forth?

Huh?