Animal cruelty for sure.

[wilomn]

OYE......what the............

What is the dang problem with the two of you. Wilomn and BG that is. You two bicker like an old married couple. GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Sorry Wilomn...but everytime BG says something it seems like you confront him for something. And BG...you clearly are not gonna take it and fire back...and so it begins.

You two need to chill out your agression towards each other...and don't give me ...."oh I don't have any blah blah blah.....". Do not make me fly out, kidnapp you two and lock you guys in the same room until you get along.......I'll do it dang it!!

Eh, do as you must.

But know this, you are falling into the trap one of us has so cunningly set.

[Big Gunns]

i don't think we should up and picket this study. it is being done with wild caught burms from the glades. this study could prove that the media hype about the "python invasion" isn't as big as a threat as some are making it out to be.

would you rather a couple of these animals be used for some data to help our community rather than them being killed for no use? at the very least, these animals are being used to help us.

Didnt VPI do the same thing in Texas with a bunch of animals in outdoor enclosures?

I can only say this, the people performing this experiment down there were probably hired by a group to confirm or deny a theory. We obviously think its stupid because we KNOW that they will be killed by the cold.

Now, do you think that there are possibly ANY un-educated people down in Florida or across the US that KNOW that these snakes can survive colder temperatures like their native counterparts? All they gotta do is crawl in a hole right? WRONG.....

Wouldn't you find this a VITAL test to prove whether or not S373 or HR669 or HR2811 or any other bill that is brought out due to Florida problem, and a Florida problem ONLY?!? NOT a Federal issue?

Wouldnt you want the people trying to take away your animals to get REAL HARD PROOF that these snakes CANT survive colder temperatures above Florida, and due to the recent cold snap even survive in parts of Florida!?!?

BG does understand that this kind of experiment can help us, but BG's point is that it would never be done with other animals. Do you think they would do something like this with feral cats?(the biggest invasive species ever by the way)

Like BG stated earlier. The animals with the microchip are a leeetle different, but not much when they know where they are and it's freezing out. They still know the animals are suffering. No way it's done with any other animal. If it was.... BG wants to see it.... and see if it was made public while it was being done.

What we need to realize from this is. Nobody really cares about us or our snakes. People just don't care about a snake. They don't care if we have them(well they do, but not in good way), or if they suffer in death.

[Big Gunns]

Eh, do as you must.

But know this, you are falling into the trap one of us has so cunningly set.

Yes it is my friend BG hasn't met yet.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Yes the Barkers studies allowed the snakes to choose between warmth and the cold. There were many types of boas and pythons used. They all had access to go indoors. They all had heating mats on both the outdoor and the inside portion of the enclosures. It seems only certain boas actually chose to stay inside or at least on the heat mat if they were outside. This was to prove that these snake will not seek out warmth like it was assumed they would. IE, snakes purposely going into homes or under homes to find warmth from the cold. Many of these snakes did die. They submitted their reports to the chicago herp society.

How much more proof does one need?

I do agree with BG that if there are snakes being left out in the cold just to see if they will die, is wrong. That is not a scientific study. Its not a matter of IF they will die, its a matter of when they will freeze to death or die a slow death from an RI.

I am not completely against animal studies for medical purposes but this does not seem like a proper study at all. They are not being humanely killed. Such as they are to be if caught in the wild. They are being allowed to suffer with no other choice. These people should really read the Barkers report.

[NightLad]

A while ago I watched a similar study about putting snakes in the refrigerator. The purpose was to determine what effects it had on their heart tissue, which reacts differently than mammal tissue. If I remember correctly, the end result of the study was to isolate an enzyme that could be beneficial to humans and heart-transplant recipients.

I love snakes and reptiles, but I am of the opinion that no animal life is equal to a human being. We feed animals (some feed live animals) to our snakes. The same rodents are used in labs to help find cures to human disease. We may not eat them, but their lives are ended for our benefit just the same.

One experiment frequently cited by animal-rights groups was conducted on dogs in the 1940s by Russian Doctor Sergei S. Bryukhonenko. Basically, he cut off the heads of dogs and hooked the arteries up to a primitive autojektor (artificial heart and lung machine). This kept the heads alive for a while. He also grafted heads onto the bodies of other dogs, attaching the arteries in such a way that they remained alive. (Until the strain of supplying blood to 2 heads caused the dogs heart to give out.) You can see some of the video of his experiments on YouTube.

As I see it: several decades ago a few dozen dogs were experimented on. Today, hundreds of thousands of people are alive due to the organ transplant techniques pioneered by Dr. Bryukhonenko (many of which are still in use today!), and the early autojektor he created.

I doubt the people alive today, and their families, would place their lives under that of a dog. Or a dozen dogs. As much as it pains me to consider our beloved snakes being used in experiments that may ultimately save many more human lives, I see the potential for a greater good.

I feel that animal testing is necessary, but should be done in the most humane and direct way possible, and only when a beneficial discovery is concluded to be attainable. (IE: No testing lipstick on kittens... )

PS: Basically every medication that is approved by the FDA, and virtually every surgical technique, has to go through Animal Trials. Even aspirin!

[Big Gunns]

A while ago I watched a similar study about putting snakes in the refrigerator. The purpose was to determine what effects it had on their heart tissue, which reacts differently than mammal tissue. If I remember correctly, the end result of the study was to isolate an enzyme that could be beneficial to humans and heart-transplant recipients.

I love snakes and reptiles, but I am of the opinion that no animal life is equal to a human being. We feed animals (some feed live animals) to our snakes. The same rodents are used in labs to help find cures to human disease. We may not eat them, but their lives are ended for our benefit just the same.

One experiment frequently cited by animal-rights groups was conducted on dogs in the 1940s by Russian Doctor Sergei S. Bryukhonenko. Basically, he cut off the heads of dogs and hooked the arteries up to a primitive autojektor (artificial heart and lung machine). This kept the heads alive for a while. He also grafted heads onto the bodies of other dogs, attaching the arteries in such a way that they remained alive. (Until the strain of supplying blood to 2 heads caused the dogs heart to give out.) You can see some of the video of his experiments on YouTube.

As I see it: a few decades ago a few dozen dogs were experimented on. Today, hundreds of thousands of people are alive due to the organ transplant techniques pioneered by Dr. Bryukhonenko (many of which are still in use today!), and the early autojektor he created.

I doubt the people alive today, and their families, would place their lives under that of a dog. Or a dozen dogs. As much as it pains me to consider our beloved snakes being used in experiments that may ultimately save many more human lives, I see the potential for a greater good.

I feel that animal testing is necessary, but should be done in the most humane and direct way possible, and only when a beneficial discovery is concluded to be attainable. (IE: No testing lipstick on kittens... )

PS: Basically every medication that is approved by the FDA, and virtually every surgical technique, has to go through Animal Trials. Even aspirin!

One problem though. These studies have nothing to do with anything that benefits humans.

BG knows what you're saying, but it doesn't apply in this case.

[Lucas339]

BG does understand that this kind of experiment can help us, but BG's point is that it would never be done with other animals. Do you think they would do something like this with feral cats?(the biggest invasive species ever by the way)

Like BG stated earlier. The animals with the microchip are a leeetle different, but not much when they know where they are and it's freezing out. They still know the animals are suffering. No way it's done with any other animal. If it was.... BG wants to see it.... and see if it was made public while it was being done.

What we need to realize from this is. Nobody really cares about us or our snakes. People just don't care about a snake. They don't care if we have them(well they do, but not in good way), or if they suffer in death.

guns, these experiments have been done time and time again. using controled environments, animals are stressed to highs and lows to see when their bodies stop functioning and what the optimal range is for the animal. you can do these experiments for a number of factors such as salinities, oxygen concentrations and, as in this case, temps. these studies are a vital part of science especially in marine science to show how human impacts can and will effect populations of animals. you wanted an example so here is one: http://www.springerlink.com/content/w1471837v6763712/. not sure if you can open the entire article. i use a computer connected to a university network so i can get a number of journal articles.

this type of test can show some valuable information that may not become evident in a lab. it is my understanding that the animals are in a large pin outdoors. if a similar study was done indoors in a caged environment, you could question just about everything with the experiment. for example, how do you know that the animal was suffering from temperature stress or the stress from being in a cage. lab experiments can be helpful but nothing compares to the data you can get from an in situ experiments.

now, is this particular study vital to science....well maybe not. was the animal going to die anyway....YES! i said it before and i will say it again. at least the animal wasn't killed for no reason. we now will have some good information on temperature stress in large constrictors.

[BPelizabeth]

BG is sure you would. Didn't you say your hubby is outta town?

Don't worry honey, BG will straighten this fued(not really BG loves Willy) out for yah.

OMG..you changed my quote...lol....it was YOU and WILOMN.... Oye..should have seen that coming........I pretty much set myself up of that one...

[j_h_smith]

Ladies and gentlemen, this type of research is and has been going on for decades if not longer. The human race has used all animals in very odd and disturbing forms of research.

I guess it's kinda like eating at your favorite restaurant and really enjoying the experience for years. Then one day you apply for a job in their kitchen and see what actually occurs in that kitchen. You've lost your taste for any of their dishes. Sometimes it's better to NOT know how things are done.

This same thing goes for animal research. You knew something was going on, until one day you read an article or watch something on the internet. then you realize how we treat our animal friends while doing research.

I'm not saying it right or wrong to do this type of research, but it is what it is. Do a little searching on the internet, most of the more important medical discoveries have been due to research on animals.

Jim Smith

[Big Gunns]

guns, these experiments have been done time and time again. using controled environments, animals are stressed to highs and lows to see when their bodies stop functioning and what the optimal range is for the animal. you can do these experiments for a number of factors such as salinities, oxygen concentrations and, as in this case, temps. these studies are a vital part of science especially in marine science to show how human impacts can and will effect populations of animals. you wanted an example so here is one: http://www.springerlink.com/content/w1471837v6763712/. not sure if you can open the entire article. i use a computer connected to a university network so i can get a number of journal articles.

this type of test can show some valuable information that may not become evident in a lab. it is my understanding that the animals are in a large pin outdoors. if a similar study was done indoors in a caged environment, you could question just about everything with the experiment. for example, how do you know that the animal was suffering from temperature stress or the stress from being in a cage. lab experiments can be helpful but nothing compares to the data you can get from an in situ experiments.

now, is this particular study vital to science....well maybe not. was the animal going to die anyway....YES! i said it before and i will say it again. at least the animal wasn't killed for no reason. we now will have some good information on temperature stress in large constrictors.

You're giving BG a crab? Uh OH...BG is being a hypocrite. All crab owners are gonna be po'd at BG.

OMG..you changed my quote...lol....it was YOU and WILOMN.... Oye..should have seen that coming........I pretty much set myself up of that one...

Yes you did.

Ladies and gentlemen, this type of research is and has been going on for decades if not longer. The human race has used all animals in very odd and disturbing forms of research.

I guess it's kinda like eating at your favorite restaurant and really enjoying the experience for years. Then one day you apply for a job in their kitchen and see what actually occurs in that kitchen. You've lost your taste for any of their dishes. Sometimes it's better to NOT know how things are done.

This same thing goes for animal research. You knew something was going on, until one day you read an article or watch something on the internet. then you realize how we treat our animal friends while doing research.

I'm not saying it right or wrong to do this type of research, but it is what it is. Do a little searching on the internet, most of the more important medical discoveries have been due to research on animals.

Jim Smith

Yes...BG knows all about the monkeys given the aids virus and nasty things of that kind, but all of these studies are like someone said earlier. They are to help the human race(BG still hates them). These are not. The snakes are left to die in the cold. This does not help us "higher beings" at all.