Odd setup for a python?

[severe_bomber]

Hi everybody.

Firstly, I'm a newbie with snakes so please bear with me. I've done loads of research on the web and am reasonably confident I know (roughly!) what I'm talking about, but I only got my 1st snake a couple of weeks ago and wanted to hear some advice straight from the experts (you guys) rather then having to sift through the poor advice (and there seems to be a lot out it there!) to find the facts on the Internet. I'll try and get as much detail in as I can without writing an essay

Got 'Mackey' a couple of weeks ago off a couple at work. They had a space issue at their new flat, so he came with the whole shebang - viv, lights, heating, timers, thermostat, logs, mice, etc, etc. He's a 3 and a half foot male Royal Python and I'm told he's 3 and a half years old. He's very friendly, handles really well and appears very healthy and happy.

I've done some research though, and based on that, I was rather surprised at the way the previous owners had chosen to set up the viv.

On the plus side, it looks like it's been made from a wooden cabinet of some sort with sliding glass doors on the front and is 3' long, 1.5' wide and 2.5' high which seems the right size and the material is good.

However, they've chosen to put a heatmat at one end (inside the tank with about an inch of substrate over the top); a 'strobe' (I think he called it - like a long white flourecent tube) on the back wall; and a red heat lamp at the opposite end to the heatmat.

The lights are on timers - they're set for 9.5 hrs white (day) and 15 hrs red (night).

He has a 'hide', of sorts, which is a log on top of a big branch. This is placed over the heatmat (opposite end to the red light) and this is where he spends all day sleeping (white light). The red light's set to come on about 5.30pm and he starts to become active at around 8.30pm and loves to climb!


Based on this setup, I have a few concerns.

1) AMBIENT TEMPERATURE: During the night (from 5.30pm til 7.30am) the red light is on. This is connected to a thermostat with a probe poking through the top of the back wall of the viv and the stat is set to 28c. Therefore, the ambient temperature at that time is 28c which I think is about right (The heatmat is still running constantly at the other end at around 30c).

However, when the red light goes off in the morning and the white one comes on, the ambient temperature can drop as low as 18c during the day. I dont know if this matters as he spends all day asleep on his heatmat at the other end anyway but nevertheless, I'm concerned it's a bit low. Should i set the red light to come on in the day as well, or will this dry out the tank too much?



2) BURNS: The red light is inside the viv on the ceiling and gets very hot, but there is no guard on it. He loves to climb and gets worrying close to it sometimes, though there are no signs of burns on him. He doesn't wrap himself around it or anything and doesn't appear to touch it. I've read theyre more likely to burn their bellys - is this true or do I need to get a bulb guard or will that just encourage him to climb on it?

He also crawls along the white light which doesn't get hot and isn't on at night when he's active anyway, but I'm concerned about it shattering.



3) HUMIDITY: I seem to be having problems getting the hunmidity up (hovers at around 55%) and I think this is causing him to patch-shed. He's having trouble getting the last bit's off. I'm misting the viv with water twice a day. Is the red light drying things out too much?


Bearing in mind he's 3.5 yrs old and apparently used to this setup, I'm reluctant to change anything too much for fear of upsetting him.

He's currently feeding well on a medium F/T mouse every 5-7 days.

Any advice most gratefully received. As a beginner, I am hooked already and love him to bits, so just want to make sure everythings spot-on for him!

Many thanks in advance.

[Kaorte]

!!

A lot of things sound really off about this setup.

I would honestly think about completely starting from scratch.

Heat mat in the viv = Can easily cause burns
Heat bulb in the viv = Can easily cause burns
Temperatures below 75*F (23*C) = Can easily cause a respiratory infection
Humidity below 50% can cause a bad shed so that makes me think that your hygrometer is not accurate.

From what you have described, this sounds like a very dangerous setup. He may be "used to it" but there are a lot of changes that need to be made. He might be upset about it for a little while, but it will be better for him in the long run and he will be happier for it.

If you haven't already, please take a nice long look at the care-sheet on ball pythons on this site. It has a lot of great information that will answer a lot of your questions.

If you want me to go into more detail, I can do that for you

[Vypyrz]

If you could post a photo of the enclosure, it would help. Keep in mind, it is late and I am tired, so hopefully I read this right.

first thing is take the heat mat out of the tank and put it under the tank. take the thermostat from the red light and hook it up to the heat mat. Get a rheostat or dimmer switch for the red light. Definitely put some type of guard around the light so your snake can't get to it. If you have the tank set-up in a room with a window where normal daylight comes in, then you don't need the white light. If you are worried about it, just take it out. The normal daylight will be enough to let them know it's bed time. If you need extra heat for the ambient temps then just keep using the red bulb but please put some type of guard around it. Yes, the heat lamp is probably contributing to the low humidity, but until we can actually see what you've got it will be difficult to make very many suggestions.

to BP.net...

[severe_bomber]

!!

A lot of things sound really off about this setup.

I would honestly think about completely starting from scratch.

Heat mat in the viv = Can easily cause burns
Heat bulb in the viv = Can easily cause burns
Temperatures below 75*F (23*C) = Can easily cause a respiratory infection
Humidity below 50% can cause a bad shed so that makes me think that your hygrometer is not accurate.

From what you have described, this sounds like a very dangerous setup. He may be "used to it" but there are a lot of changes that need to be made. He might be upset about it for a little while, but it will be better for him in the long run and he will be happier for it.

If you haven't already, please take a nice long look at the care-sheet on ball pythons on this site. It has a lot of great information that will answer a lot of your questions.

If you want me to go into more detail, I can do that for you

Many thanks, Kaorte.

I've looked at the caresheets which pretty much confirm what I thought (and what you have advised). I find it amazing that the previous owners (who seemed to know what they were talking about) seem to have done just the opposite of everything that is recommended!

I think i will embark on some major changes over the weekend!

Thanks again!

[severe_bomber]

If you could post a photo of the enclosure, it would help. Keep in mind, it is late and I am tired, so hopefully I read this right.

first thing is take the heat mat out of the tank and put it under the tank. take the thermostat from the red light and hook it up to the heat mat. Get a rheostat or dimmer switch for the red light. Definitely put some type of guard around the light so your snake can't get to it. If you have the tank set-up in a room with a window where normal daylight comes in, then you don't need the white light. If you are worried about it, just take it out. The normal daylight will be enough to let them know it's bed time. If you need extra heat for the ambient temps then just keep using the red bulb but please put some type of guard around it. Yes, the heat lamp is probably contributing to the low humidity, but until we can actually see what you've got it will be difficult to make very many suggestions.

to BP.net...

Many thanks, Vypyrz. Sounds like I need to make some major changes - and quickly!

I think there's a gap under the viv as it's converted from a cabinet so not sure he would feel the heat from the mat if I put it underneath. Perhaps I should stick in on the base somehow? (At the moment it's in the tank with about 1-2 inches of subsrate over it.) I'll move the stat to the mat and buy another one for the red light. What temperature should the mat be running at? (Currently it stays at around 30c.)

I'll get a guard for the red light bulb. This is currently placed at the opposite end to the heat mat. Is this right or should it be at the same end? When it's running, we have 30c at the light end and 30c on the mat. I understand one end should be significantly cooler? Perhaps this is why I'm having problems with humidity?

I like the idea of losing the light - one less thing to worry about at least!

Thanks again for the response - I'll post a pic of the setup later today so you can see it.

[kc261]

Welcome to bp.net, and the wonderful world of ball python ownership!

I would definitely lose the fluorescent bulb. It doesn't do anything for a BP, and as you said is just one more thing to worry about.

It would be good if you can lose the heat bulb also, because that will drain your humidity. If you can get enough heat from the heat mat without the heat mat getting too hot, that would be best. If not, then you should definitely get some sort of guard on the heat bulb so the snake can not burn himself. You can experiment a little bit as far as the ideal placement for it. A lot of people find the heat mat does just fine for a hot spot, but does not do enough to raise the ambient temperature of the entire enclosure, so they put the heat lamp in the middle or even towards the cool end.

Both the heat bulb and the heat mat should be controlled by thermostats. It may be possible to get reasonable control of your temps by using a rheostat (dimmer switch) instead, if you have pretty constant room temps. Rheostats require very close monitoring of the temps, as every change in the room temperature will affect how high or low the dimmer should be set. T-stats control themselves automatically. The t-stats or rheostats should be adjusted so that the hot spot is about 32 C and the ambient temp in the rest of the enclosure is about 27 C. I think quite a few people find that they can good control of the temps by using a t-stat for the heat mat, and a dimmer for the light, which aside from being a little less expensive than needing 2 t-stats, it eliminates the annoying on/off of the light that will result if you use an on/off type t-stat.

I'm not quite sure where to place the heat mat in those wooden cabinet type enclosures. I believe if you put it under the enclosure, not enough heat will travel through the wood. I think some of them are designed with the heat built in, and others are intended to be used with only heat lamps and/or radiant heat panels. I have also heard of people putting the heat mat on the underside of a piece of flooring tile, and putting the entire tile in the enclosure. I have no idea how well that works, because I've never seen it personally.

I do not believe you said how you are measuring the temps and humidity. Digital gauges are a must; the dial types are often inaccurate.

Once the temps are properly controlled, you'll have a better idea of where you are in terms of humidity. There are lots of things that can be done to increase the humidity, such as using a water bowl with a larger surface area. As a temporary measure, you can add a humid hide that the snake can go into any time he wishes some extra humidity.

[severe_bomber]

Welcome to bp.net, and the wonderful world of ball python ownership!

I would definitely lose the fluorescent bulb. It doesn't do anything for a BP, and as you said is just one more thing to worry about.

It would be good if you can lose the heat bulb also, because that will drain your humidity. If you can get enough heat from the heat mat without the heat mat getting too hot, that would be best. If not, then you should definitely get some sort of guard on the heat bulb so the snake can not burn himself. You can experiment a little bit as far as the ideal placement for it. A lot of people find the heat mat does just fine for a hot spot, but does not do enough to raise the ambient temperature of the entire enclosure, so they put the heat lamp in the middle or even towards the cool end.

Both the heat bulb and the heat mat should be controlled by thermostats. It may be possible to get reasonable control of your temps by using a rheostat (dimmer switch) instead, if you have pretty constant room temps. Rheostats require very close monitoring of the temps, as every change in the room temperature will affect how high or low the dimmer should be set. T-stats control themselves automatically. The t-stats or rheostats should be adjusted so that the hot spot is about 32 C and the ambient temp in the rest of the enclosure is about 27 C. I think quite a few people find that they can good control of the temps by using a t-stat for the heat mat, and a dimmer for the light, which aside from being a little less expensive than needing 2 t-stats, it eliminates the annoying on/off of the light that will result if you use an on/off type t-stat.

I'm not quite sure where to place the heat mat in those wooden cabinet type enclosures. I believe if you put it under the enclosure, not enough heat will travel through the wood. I think some of them are designed with the heat built in, and others are intended to be used with only heat lamps and/or radiant heat panels. I have also heard of people putting the heat mat on the underside of a piece of flooring tile, and putting the entire tile in the enclosure. I have no idea how well that works, because I've never seen it personally.

I do not believe you said how you are measuring the temps and humidity. Digital gauges are a must; the dial types are often inaccurate.

Once the temps are properly controlled, you'll have a better idea of where you are in terms of humidity. There are lots of things that can be done to increase the humidity, such as using a water bowl with a larger surface area. As a temporary measure, you can add a humid hide that the snake can go into any time he wishes some extra humidity.

Many thanks, KC261

I am removing the white light as we speak and am seriously considering losing the red one as well (as I'm sure this would improve humidity).

Currently, the red light is controlled with a Habistat dimming thermostat (with 3 wires - mains, sensor probe thingy, and heat source). Do you know if I can use this same stat for the heatmat or are they different? (I presume I would have to stick the metal probe under the heatmat somehow).

I like the idea about a floor tile to put the mat under. I'm sure I can pick up one that's strong, yet thin enough to let the heat through.

Thanks again!

[severe_bomber]

take the thermostat from the red light and hook it up to the heat mat. Get a rheostat or dimmer switch for the red light.

Vypyrz - The red light is currenty hooked up to a Habistat dimming thermostat. If I lose the light, can I hook this same stat up to the heatmat (as you've suggested) or are they different? I could stick the metal probe under the mat?

Thanks

[dr del]

Hi,

The habistat can be used with either heat source without a problem.


dr del

[severe_bomber]

Hi,

The habistat can be used with either heat source without a problem.


dr del

Many thanks, Dr Del.

I had wondered as they ('Living Earth', in this case) apparently manufacture both 'dimming-stats' and 'mat-stats' that look very similar but have differing prices. I guess then that this is just another marketing tactic.

Thanks for the advice - you should know, as I note you come from an even colder part of the country than I do! That's quite a collection you've got there too!

Thanks again

Oh - I found a small sheet of glass and was thinking of disinfecting and placing over the heat mat (it's a wooden viv - sliding glass doors) so he's not in direct contact with the mat. Will this be okay or is there any risk (if it's on a stat) ?

Cheers