ya im going to the expo this month, im close enough too it. and you are probably right bout not wanting the pinkie, it was just a thought. i had her eat a small rat once, i made sure it was p/k but after that one she wouldn't touch rats and just turned up her nose at them. so i could try rats again, and ill try the bigger prey size cause maybe the juvi mice are too small and she cant be bothered to eat something that small. thanks again everyone, ill try some stuff over the next week or two and update everyone with the results good or bad and go from there.