Culling mutated hatchlings:

[DarkSean]

Don't freeze snakes!!! Anyone who thinks that is a good idea is silly.

[Emmastaff]

I have not encountered this situation, as I do not breed. But my book "The complete ball python" says that you can freeze in these situations or take to a vet for euthanasia. You could always talk to your vet and see what their opinion is. They have a good knowledge of the nervous system of the snake and how it will be affected by either method. I would think that there being cold-blooded would affect how it feels to them differently than it would to a person.

Vader, I understand where you are coming from. I realize that your intentions are nothing less than noble and that in your opinion you are keeping the best interests of the snake in mind. However, I do see several problems with your theory

1. It is illegal whether or not the animal is likely to live or not

2. If someone who is not knowegable in snakes stumbles upon it, they are going to freak out. (Before I knew what a ball python was, I would probably would have been convinced it was a baby monster snake like I had seen on T.V.! LOL The reality is that MANY people have a deep-rooted phobia of snakes and to encounter any snake in the wild, especially one that is not native, will set of a reaction of extreme fear and then "How can we stop this from happening again?".

3. There is no guarantee the animal would not survive. You just never know, what appears to you to be a life-threatening defect may still allow the animal to survive for a while. If it encounters the right environmental factors (unlikely, but could happen), and no predators stumble upon it, it could survive. It might be better if you feel it would rather explore for a while, to put it in a clean safe cage and just allow it to live out it's days in the security of your home. You could allow it to die naturally, and yet with the dignity of being warm, safe and as comfortable as is possible.

4. Any hatchling found in the wild, whether it is the warm Everglades, or the frozen tundra land of the north, would be said by our opponents to be evidence of a wild breeding population. Like I said, no matter how unlikely the environment is to produce a breeding population, a hatclhing would be fuel for the fire... There is no room for error on our part right now, or ever. We must practice our hobby with the utmost responsibility and care, now and forever.

Anyways, interesting thread folks!

[DarkSean]

I have read that since they are cold blooded and they burmate. Their blood can start to crystallize(sp) before they die.

If that is true, that would be the furthest thing from humane there could be.

[WingedWolfPsion]

The only approved method is administration of an overdose of sedative by a veterinarian. The animal must still experience the stress of the trip there, and the needle stick, when this done--but then it will be sedated, and will pass without further pain, even though it may take a while.
The only approved method is not necessarily the most humane method, however, as I pointed out. Instant destruction of the brain is a terrible thing to have to do, but it's free of pain, it's instant, and there is no question about how long the animal may have suffered. This is the same method most owners of small numbers of snakes use to put down rats in order to feed them off.

[broadude]

I have not encountered this situation, as I do not breed. But my book "The complete ball python" says that you can freeze in these situations or take to a vet for euthanasia. You could always talk to your vet and see what their opinion is. They have a good knowledge of the nervous system of the snake and how it will be affected by either method. I would think that there being cold-blooded would affect how it feels to them differently than it would to a person.

Vader, I understand where you are coming from. I realize that your intentions are nothing less than noble and that in your opinion you are keeping the best interests of the snake in mind. However, I do see several problems with your theory

1. It is illegal whether or not the animal is likely to live or not

2. If someone who is not knowegable in snakes stumbles upon it, they are going to freak out. (Before I knew what a ball python was, I would probably would have been convinced it was a baby monster snake like I had seen on T.V.! LOL The reality is that MANY people have a deep-rooted phobia of snakes and to encounter any snake in the wild, especially one that is not native, will set of a reaction of extreme fear and then "How can we stop this from happening again?".

3. There is no guarantee the animal would not survive. You just never know, what appears to you to be a life-threatening defect may still allow the animal to survive for a while. If it encounters the right environmental factors (unlikely, but could happen), and no predators stumble upon it, it could survive. It might be better if you feel it would rather explore for a while, to put it in a clean safe cage and just allow it to live out it's days in the security of your home. You could allow it to die naturally, and yet with the dignity of being warm, safe and as comfortable as is possible.

4. Any hatchling found in the wild, whether it is the warm Everglades, or the frozen tundra land of the north, would be said by our opponents to be evidence of a wild breeding population. Like I said, no matter how unlikely the environment is to produce a breeding population, a hatclhing would be fuel for the fire... There is no room for error on our part right now, or ever. We must practice our hobby with the utmost responsibility and care, now and forever.

Anyways, interesting thread folks!

I have that same book. The Complete Ball Python (A Comprehensive Guide to Care, Breeding, and Genetic Mutations) by Kevin McCurley Page 112 says regarding snakes with severe deformities that disable the nake and cause it to fail to function:: "A humane way to deal with these snakes is to freeze them or have a veterinarian euthanize them."

Interesting thread.

[DarkSean]

So a book states its humane to put a live python into a freezer?

I would burn the book... but thats just me

[DarkSean]

Reptiles
Preferred methods
Barbiturates

Sodium pentobarbital (60-100 mg/kg) can be administered intravenously or intraperitoneally.
Inhalant agents

Use of inhalant agents for euthanasia is acceptable for lizards and snakes, but not recommended for chelonians (turtles) as many of these species can hold their breath for extended periods. A physical method of euthanasia must be used after apparent clinical death to ensure that death has in fact occurred
Conditionally acceptable methods
Physical methods

Decapitation alone is not considered an acceptable means of euthanasia in reptiles because of the high tolerance of nervous tissue to hypoxia. Double pithing, or decapitation followed by double pithing, is required to ensure brain death. Ideally these methods should follow anesthesia, but stunning prior to decapitation or pithing is acceptable when the operator is well-trained and when scientific justification is provided. Pithing may not be performed on conscious animals.
Carbon dioxide

Like inhalant agents, carbon dioxide may be used in lizards and snakes but not cheloneans. Loss of consciousness usually develops rapidly, but exposure times required for euthanasia are prolonged. Exposure must be followed by a physical method of euthanasia.
Adjunctive methods

Perfusion with fixative may be used to bring about death in anesthetized animals when scientifically justified.

Cooling may be used to decrease activity in animals prior to euthanasia, but the temperature must be no lower than that normally experienced by the species. Freezing a conscious animal is not permissible, except when small animals are flash frozen in liquid nitrogen.

[j_h_smith]

Wow, I've never seen some much discussion on the subject before. I guess no one here has grown up on a farm? You cannot discuss humane/inhumane when dealing with putting down animals. They are not human. Ever wonder how chikcens are killed? Do you think the cattlemen spend big money on chemicals to kill their stock?

Chickens have their necks rung, by machine or by people. It's been awhile since I've had family in the cattle business, but they used to electrocute the cattle by hainvg them standing on a metal floor, then someone walks around with this metal prod which is electified. Usually it kills them on the spot, but not always. Chickens can live for minutes after their neck is rung, so many of the shops today snap the necks, then slice the neck, trying to cut through the neck but not always. Ever seen pigs slaughtered. Interesting.

Please don't get caught up on humane/inhumane. Do it to the best of your ability and get over it. Only kill what you have to kill.

I love all of my animals, but I have no problem putting them down if that's what needs to be done.

Ever take a 22 out to the shed to kill Ole Yeller?

Jim Smith

[dr del]

Hi,

Pithing.

I have to say, having watched a ball python sit with its head underwater for over 25 minutes, I'm not overly convinced by the "Inhalant agents" method either.

Where did you get that from by the way?

The british small animal vetinary association manual of reptiles has this as its entry;

....................

Intravenous barbiturates are the method of choice. This technique is quick, resulting in death within a couple of minutes..................

Intraperitoneal or intramuscular injection of barbiturate is effective but very slow - several hours ( Lawton, unpublished data ). Intraperitoneal injection should not be used if a post mortem examination is planned. Intracardial injection can be used in squamata but the lizard or snake should ideally be sedated or even anaesthetised prior to this technique.

Inhalation of volatile agents within an anaesthetic chamber is useful for terrestrial species and, especially, for poisonous snakes. The concentration of volatile agent must be high enough and the exposure to the agent long enough to ensure the death of the reptile. Care must also be taken to avoid contct of the reptile with the volatile fluid. Euthanasia of aquatic species should never be attempted this way, as they are able to revert to anaerobic respiration, the length of time needed to achieve euthenasia makes this method impracticable.

Injection of volatile agent directly into the lung space has been used as a method of euthanasia, although this should only be done in anaesthatised reptiles (Cooper et al, 1989 ).

...............

In an emergency the head of the reptile can be struck with such force as to destroy the brain (Cooper et al, 1989 ).

Decapitation should not be used as the sole method of euthanasia, unless the brain is destroyed by pithing immediately afterwards (Cooper et al , 1989 ). The assumption that decapitation results in unconciousness followed by rapid deterioration of the nervous system is disputed: the brain remains viable for up to an hour after decapitation (Cooper et al, 1984 ).

Hypothermia has been claimed as both a suitable and humane method for euthenasia of small reptiles (Frye, 1984a ), although this is strongly contested. Whilst hypothermia makes reptiles torpid and may facilitate handling, freezing is considered painful due to the formation of ice crystals on the skin and in the tissues (Cooper et al, 1989 ). The exception to this is dropping small reptiles directly into liquid nitrogen; this is considered to cause instantaneous death (Hillman, 1978 ).

I skipped the non relevant parts but that still made my fingers twinge.

It's also probably out of date but it's the only one I have handy right now.


dr del

[Wretched Deviant]

For those who smash the head of the snake, how do you even stand to do so? I know I could never do this, and since I'm going to breed, I'd rather spend money to get the snake humanely euthanized rather than witness the horror of smashing a baby snake's head. I respect and love snakes way to much to do anything horrible to them.. Like smashing the head, freezing, cutting off the head, C02, etc.

But see, it's not a matter of smashing and killing but caring enough to put it out of its misery, a vet may not know how to euthanize reptiles properly and it may suffer more. I've seen breeders take videos of deformed babies where they poke and prod it as the creature writhes in pain because it's spine is deformed, I felt so sickened...I could have killed it myself just to put it out of its misery. Maybe I'd be upset and cry after doing so but I'd know that it wasn't going to live in an unfulfilled life.

And Vader6, take YOUR own advice and stop trying to win a petty argument. And then AFTER saying you're done with the thread you come BACK to show yourself as a n00b even more! n00b's are rude idiots by the way, at least you know you're one.