He took 3 small rats......

[withonor]

Quick history. I adopted him the Monday before Thanksgiving. He is ~3-4 years old and the previous owners had him for ~2 years. When I got him it had been ~2 weeks since he ate. The previous owners were giving him one "big" small rat every two weeks. I fed him a small rat on Thanksgiving in the bath tub like they had done. The next time I fed him was December 13th which was 17 days later. I was trying to switch to F/T and reading here people went an extra period before trying the switch to make sure they were hungry and the normal period was seven days. Seventeen days between feeding was about normal for him though.

When I got the frozen rats I got a live small rat also incase he didn't take frozen. He took the frozen so I caged the rat and kept it in my room. All week long he hasn't been in his hide much at all. I got the impression that he was still hungry but I was worried something was wrong with my husbandry even though nothing had changed in that department. I weighed him this week and found:



A "big" small rat is about 84 grams which is not an adequate meal so I knew he was probably still hungry. I wasn't comfortable with feeding multiple items at a time or in a short period so I was going to stick with the one food per seven days that I have found here to be common for adults. He was getting one small rat every two weeks and I was bumping it up to one per week, twice as much.

Saturday, six days later, my girlfriend was coming by so, trying to get her more on board with the snake thing, I told her I'd offer him one while she was here. I get the rat thawing a couple hours before she is supposed to be here and I put Lunchbox Jr. (The live rat) in the room so he can prescent it (Moved him out a couple days ago when it got too hot for a mammal in a tub), so he has a job now. She shows up...love, love...kiss, kiss... it's about 6pm and I put the rat in the enclosure and he gets it so quick she asks if I can replay it. We go to dinner.

A couple hours later she is gone and I go to check on my snake. He is in the same exact position as he was when he took the first one. He is not relaxed (I would describe that as having a straight neck and head resting on something). He was still aggressive (head in the air, neck in an "s"). I thaw another rat and feed it to him around 10pm. He took it and had it down faster than the first. After this rat I thought maybe I should have weighed them to know exactly what they were.

My girlfriend came back because she forgot something and we got to talking. Fast foward almost four hours and I go to check on my snake again. He is in the exact same position he was in for the first two rats. I decide to thaw another rat. An hour later I look in on him and he is still there so I go prepare the third rat and bring it into the room. I weighed it at 60 grams, so this was potentially 180 grams in one feeding which would be ~16% of his body weight, not bad. He is aware of my movements and is at the front of the tank looking out at me. His body is weaved around his water bowl and back around the tree fixture in there. I put the rat in to lead him back around the tree to make striking happen in a more open area. He grabbed it as soon as I put it close and quickly swallowed it. A minute after he had it down he went into his hide and I walked out of the room.

I checked back 10 minutes later and he is so big around he can't fit in his hide. Hahaha! I know that's not really funny because stress could cause some problems if he doesn't feel secure but he didn't look like the same snake I had yesterday. By not fit I mean he got through it one time but wasn't able to double back and wind himself in it. I threw a towel over his entire tank.







Some questions:

The first rat had some blood come out of it's nose when I thawed it and more came out inside the tank when he ate it. While trying to eat it by the leg he dragged it through his water bowl. He eventually dropped it so I grabbed it by the tail, it's head soaking wet and cold, and dangled it in front of him and he got it properly and swallowed it. Should I wait 48 hours to clean this stuff up considering he's not even in a hide?

Are there any long term effects from underfeeding?

Can you over-feed a snake?

[j_h_smith]

Some questions:
The first rat had some blood come out of it's nose when I thawed it and more came out inside the tank when he ate it. While trying to eat it by the leg he dragged it through his water bowl. He eventually dropped it so I grabbed it by the tail, it's head soaking wet and cold, and dangled it in front of him and he got it properly and swallowed it. Should I wait 48 hours to clean this stuff up considering he's not even in a hide?

Are there any long term effects from underfeeding?

Can you over-feed a snake?

It depends on the snake. If he's hyper, then wait. If he's laid back and doesn't normally get excited, change the water. However, it shouldn't hurt to leave everything alone for a couple of days either. I think it's really up to you, the snake won't care.

I've never heard of underfeeding causing any problems other than undergrowth. Severe underfeeding is called starvation and yes this will cause many issues.

Yes, you can overfeed. Regurg is the biggest risk. Impaction can also occur. If he's taking 3 rats at a time, regardless of how hungry he is, I think you need to go up a size on the rats. This is as long as the new prey food is the proper size.


Good Luck!
Jim Smith

[dr del]

Hi,

Actually I would stick to one small rat every 5-7 days and then cut it back to onece every 7 days as a long term regime.

One of the problems with giving them a lot of food is it can actually trigger a fast which means less consistent growth in the long run.

He will put his weight on and grow perfectly well with just the one small rat per week and probably have a far more consistent long term feeding experience.


dr del

[withonor]

It depends on the snake. If he's hyper, then wait. If he's laid back and doesn't normally get excited, change the water. However, it shouldn't hurt to leave everything alone for a couple of days either. I think it's really up to you, the snake won't care.

I've never heard of underfeeding causing any problems other than undergrowth. Severe underfeeding is called starvation and yes this will cause many issues.

Yes, you can overfeed. Regurg is the biggest risk. Impaction can also occur. If he's taking 3 rats at a time, regardless of how hungry he is, I think you need to go up a size on the rats. This is as long as the new prey food is the proper size.


Good Luck!
Jim Smith

Thanks.

I woke up this morning fearing I was going to find partially digested rat in his tank. Thankfully that's not the case but he is definately hyper. Very jumpy to my actions when I was checking him. The towel is not a good hide simulator, I'm just going to reduce the visits to my room to an absolute minimum two days.

He definately doesn't look like he's been starved.

I'm going to pick up some mediums which should be about 10% of his weight.

[withonor]

Hi,

Actually I would stick to one small rat every 5-7 days and then cut it back to onece every 7 days as a long term regime.

One of the problems with giving them a lot of food is it can actually trigger a fast which means less consistent growth in the long run.

He will put his weight on and grow perfectly well with just the one small rat per week and probably have a far more consistent long term feeding experience.


dr del

My first reaction to your reply is the robot response, 10-15% of his body weight a week. I thought about it a little and then I wondered, when does that stop? I don't care if he gets any bigger, I just care that he's healthly. Unless he turns out to be a she, I don't know for sure have just been basing it on size/age and it's easier than typing he/she everytime, there's really no reason to get any bigger, right?

So are you saying continue with one small rat because that will maintain his current weight and keep him healthy?

[dr del]

Hi,

No I was saying it because he is past the major growth burst that hatchlings have really.

Their growth rate slows as they age so they do not have a constant level of food requirement the way a mammal does.

By the time they are ready for small rats the fastest growth is nearly all behind them so it seems uneccessary to keep pushing 10-15% of weight up until the point you have a 3 kilo female BP. If they don't eat less often or go on a fast they could very easily end up overweight I think.

One small rat every 5-7 day will still let him grow and gain weight fine.


dr del

[withonor]

Thanks for clarifying.

Looking long term assuming he'll live for 20-30 years, does a small rat ever become inadequate? If so, at what point/weight/% should I feed him, or any other ball python for that matter, something bigger?

[dr del]

Hi,

Never really.

Here are a couple of posts Adam made that first got me thinking about it and changed the way I feed mine;

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...3&postcount=14

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...8&postcount=22

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...9&postcount=13

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...0&postcount=11

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...77&postcount=2

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...9&postcount=11

It's one of those topics that gets asked fairly regularly so, when you have time, have a look with the search function and read the various points made by people.

Makes for intresting reading.


dr del

[withonor]

Thanks for those direct links. It's enough to convince me. Now the three feedings I have done don't prove anything, but they are inline what what Adam was saying. His feeding response is great. I offer him food and he takes it within seconds. Even the three last night that I now feel bad about, he got quicker on each one and they were offered over a 9 hour period of time, not right after the other. With all the "My snake hasn't eaten for xxxx period of time" threads I think I will stick with the 52 small rats a year as recommended by a highly experienced breeder and confirmed by another experienced person, you.

My primary question was actually about cleaning up the mess because there was rat blood in a couple places and in his water dish. I did a search for that and the entire first page had no topic related to cleaning.

I don't know how he fit in the log hide two days ago because right now he is about as big around as the openings. He's not even laying through it now so I think I'll remove the log all together so that he can at least sit on the heat. At the same time his behavior is telling me that if I put my hand in there, he is going to bite me. I may look for a different hide but I don't want to do too much to cause enough stress that he regurgitates. I think I'm just going to trust him to know what he needs as I have provided him with the temperatures and humidity he should have available.

[dr del]

Hi,

I knew I'd forgotten to answer something.

When they rush at me in a feeding mode I tend to tap then (gently mind ) on the top of the head - usually with the water sprayer bottle but sometimes just holding an open palm in front of them stops them long enough for me to touch their head.

Any surprise like that tends to knock them out of feeding mode - and is incidently why you shouldn't push the rat too close to them when offering.

You can spook them right out of dinner.

It depends on your substrate as to whether or not to clean the rat blood on there - if it is something like newspaper where it would definately disturb him then I would say it's probably better just to leave it for the 48 hours. If it is simply grabing a handfull of aspen and replacing it however I don't see it doing any major harm.

I would definately take out and clean the waterbowl though.

Make sure your temps stay in the right range after a large meal just to reduce the chances of anything going wrong and maybe give him a little longer before handling than the usual 48 hours just to be safe.


dr del