Breeding with only homozygous snakes.

[withonor]

I'm curious if anyone does this?

Seeing as how normals are almost given away for shipping costs, they seem like a detriment to the hobby. Does anyone else ever think about all the snakes they produce that are undesirable? Or is this too noble of an ideal?

I was looking at a breeders list of '09 clutches (7 pages worth) and for 80-90% of the pairings, the females were normal. Quantity over quality?

I can see the cost savings up front for those of us who aren't professionals. I love genetic stripes. I could get a 1.1 100% het pair for $200-300 where as a pair of actual genetic stripes would be ~$1400. The real pair would produce 100% genetic stripe offspring. The het pair would produce, for a couple generations, a bunch of normals, some possible hets and a couple real ones. Does the money saved up front equal the cost of all these extras? Is it fair to the snakes when we have control of this?

I can also see the side that enjoys taking a couple of hets and breeding them until you get what you're looking for. I played a card game in middle school/high school called Magic: The Gathering and it was more exciting to buy a pack of cards with one potential rare over and over than to just buy the card you wanted specifically which would probably be cheaper in the long run.

[ladywhipple02]

I agree with you, to a point.

Personally, my goal is to get awareness out there.

Every one of my friends and even coworkers knows that I keep and will soon breed ball pythons. Most are curious and ask about the snakes. A few have even asked about getting one someday.

And these people aren't interested in getting a $300 animal...they just want something that they can enjoy.

If I can get awareness out that these are gentle creatures and that they make good pets---while also educating about how to keep them---then those normals that I produce will go to good homes, and I will also be helping spread the entire hobby.

I think most people here at the forum would like to see the knowledge spread, until, at some point, having a ball python is just as accepted as having a cat or dog.


Here's where I agree with you: once these animals start becoming more mainstream, you're going to see the same issues you already see with cats and dogs, i.e. too many animals that end up unwanted and left behind.

It's a fine line to tread. So far, the hobby seems to be growing slowly, so hopefully we can build a decent infrastructure of education before it gets out of hand.

[withonor]

I agree with you, to a point.

Personally, my goal is to get awareness out there.

Every one of my friends and even coworkers knows that I keep and will soon breed ball pythons. Most are curious and ask about the snakes. A few have even asked about getting one someday.

And these people aren't interested in getting a $300 animal...they just want something that they can enjoy.

If I can get awareness out that these are gentle creatures and that they make good pets---while also educating about how to keep them---then those normals that I produce will go to good homes, and I will also be helping spread the entire hobby.

I think most people here at the forum would like to see the knowledge spread, until, at some point, having a ball python is just as accepted as having a cat or dog.


Here's where I agree with you: once these animals start becoming more mainstream, you're going to see the same issues you already see with cats and dogs, i.e. too many animals that end up unwanted and left behind.

It's a fine line to tread. So far, the hobby seems to be growing slowly, so hopefully we can build a decent infrastructure of education before it gets out of hand.

Thanks for your input and I totally agree with you.

There are many people who enjoy having a variety of pets and don't necessarily care what the genetics of those pets are. So having more affordable options of ball pythons would benefit the community by getting more support.

I'm curious if there's anyone investing/thinking about the future now.

[BPelizabeth]

I think I already have a list of my sons friends that want one of the snakes when they breed...which is like still 2 1/2 yrs away...normals of course. That to me is great to spread that but with that also comes the teaching. Several of his friends already come over and help with the snakes...and learn how to take care of them. If it is a kid that I give a snake to...I would most definetly make them come over and learn first.

I see too many kids at the school with reptiles and some of them scare the crap out me with how they do things. Makes me angry with the parents that they do not over see more of what is going on with the husbandry of these pets.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I'm sorry, but none of the snakes I produce are undesirable. Yes, it's true, normals cost less than the shipping price, which makes people leery of buying one to have it shipped. As a result most (though not all) are sold locally, or they are sold in groups.

I've also found that they sell out quickly, even though I have larger numbers of them than I do of morphs, since I breed co-doms to normals. As of right now, the only animals I have left are het orange ghosts, and albinos and hets. Everything else is gone, and the normals were one of the first to sell out completely, right after spiders.

I think the problem some folks have with selling them is that they don't realize they have to market them differently. Most normals will go to pet homes, so they need to be marketed to average people looking for a pet. Local classifieds work extremely well for this. Larger numbers of normals can be sold to a local pet store, if you have one that is actually knowledgeable (I do, fortunately). They could also be wholesaled to a distributor who supplies pet stores, if you had a hundred or more of them.

My normals are in very high demand as pets--far from being undesirable. Now, in terms of cash, of course I get less for them, but cash isn't the entire definition of desirability.

I'll be producing a maximum of 96 normals this coming season. That's at least $1920 in sales, because I have yet to get less than $20 ea for them, even the males sold to the pet store. Pet stores pay shipping costs too, and well-established, fat, healthy babies for just slightly less than their supplier is asking is something they love. Smaller pet stores love to buy locally. The cost of feeding the normals up 3 times to establish them is a tiny fraction of their value.

Now, if you have limited space, then I can see why you would want to stick to visual morphs in your collection, and not breed normals. I am expanding, and space is not a primary concern when I do my pairings and plan for next year's. But normals pay the cost of their mother's food and board over the course of a year. Even if a co-dom pairing resulted in a clutch of ALL normals, that would be true. This is really simple math--normal animals are priced according to how much it costs to produce them, and retailers are in fact willing to pay a bit more for CBB animals from a reliable source than they are for sketchy CH imports.

[BPelizabeth]

Oh I hope I did not come off wrong.....my favorite snake out of the three I have thus far is still my normal. She is beautiful and has an amazing personality.

So no....I don't think they are undesirable....just more affordable to ppl that are not into it yet.

Now I have to say....when we went looking for my sons BP...I saw a pastel and a spider and thought..who in the world would spend that type of money on a snake. Yea...that was like 4 months ago...and a butter and a bee later. You do the $$ math there....lol

[jjmitchell]

I get what your saying, not that animals are unwanted, but in reality there will be more than you can find good homes for with normals unless you are fortunate to have a few pet shops picking em up from you. I personally am going to shell out the extra to buy visuals with recessive morphs... with co-doms the het versions is cool cause you can easliy produce mulitple cool things with them, plus the super version I do want some super form codom's but that wont take away from my love for any of may animals. But I can see that with out breeding morphs to normals you will already be producing alot of normals so using morph to morph would cut down on that.

[OhhWatALoser]

I was looking at a breeders list of '09 clutches (7 pages worth) and for 80-90% of the pairings, the females were normal. Quantity over quality?

are breeder spossed to not breed their normals, just because they don't produce homozygous animals? all these normals are just spossed to sit there? also most of the money breeders make is off all the normals, and low dollar co-doms. yea they have some stuff that cost in the thousands of dollars but most people are buying up the lower costing stuff. its how they make money and stay afloat

[withonor]

I knew using the word undesirable was a strong statement and may not be taken as intended. I'm not saying that once an egg is hatched that you're going to treat them differently or not care about them. But when snakes are paired up people are hoping for something and it's usually not normals. Then I read a comment after 9 healthy eggs are laid and hatched that says, "I got bad genetic odds on that clutch." All 9 hatched and those are bad odds?

Not to be offensive but a comment like:

all these normals are just spossed to sit there?

Is the reason I am asking this question. We have control here, why not exercise it.

This also stems from the fact that I don't like playing the odds. "Luck" has never been on my side.

[Eventide]

I understand what you're saying, and I've thought about it a lot. I decided to build my breeding plans around producing the fewest number of normals as possible. It's not that I think they're undesirable or lesser snakes (my favorite will always be my normal female). I just do not trust pet stores (even the reptile specialty store in town), and I'm not entirely sure I could find local homes for all of them. If that turns out to not be the case, then great! But I'd rather spend a little more at the outset and produce fewer normals. I've modified my breeding plan to include almost entirely male recessives x het females and co-dom x co-dom pairs initially, with things getting more complicated the farther along I get.

So...yeah, that's how I'm doing things. But I don't look down on anyone who doesn't do it this way (not saying you do; I'm just commenting), especially if they don't have trouble finding good homes for their normals.