Views on keeping more than one bp in an enclosure

[wilomn]

http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/about1343.html

YouTube - Ball Python Combat

Anyone with the brains of a gnat, which I am assuming we all have at the minimum, would see that and say to themselves, "Hey, I have 2 males in there. I better separate them."

If that was your point, well done.

If you were trying to make some other point, one of us would be sorely embarrassed by the average gnat.

[rabernet]

Here's my take on it. Obviously there are people who communally house ball pythons and do so quite successfully. Those are the types of keepers who Craig (skiploder) and Wes are most likely referring to (not trying to put words in either of their mouths).

Where problems arise, and why as a general guideline for new keepers, we recommend individual housing - is that there are many keepers who communally house as a financial short cut.

Their need for immediate gratification to add a new animal outweighs the financial decision to properly set up a quarantine tub, etc and they go out and they buy a new snake and just add it to the tank/enclosure that their established snake/snakes are already kept. THAT's where problems can and do often happen.

The point that both Craig and Wes are trying to make is that we can't and SHOULDN'T make sweeping generalizations, especially regurgitated generalizations.

However, I do agree that someone asking if they can house two animals together as a financial shortcut should probably be encouraged to re-think their decisions - as I do believe that a new keeper does not have the experience under their belts yet to be able to read their animals and the subtle cues that there may be a problem.

It's in the best interest of our ball pythons to HIDE their illnesses as long as they can before they start to show symptoms - survival of the fittest (drooling for example in RI's) that a newer keeper FIRST notices, whereas a more experienced keeper may notice a difference in how an animal is behaving, or "slime trails" on the tub/tank when they are doing routine maintenance that would allow them to catch a problem sooner.

So - if someone is asking can they house together, because they don't have enough money to get another enclosure, that means that they don't have enough money to properly QT a new animal, and I personally would discourage it.

Boy - I took a left turn down ramble somewhere - so I'll end it here!

[Kaorte]

Alright.

90% of the people who post questions on this forum are new to keeping ball pythons.

That being said, the information "regurgitated" is reflective of the original posters experience level.

If it was easy to house ball pythons together, then we would tell people to go for it. We don't because for the most part, newbies have no clue. The setups are usually wrong and they don't understand their snakes yet. Many of them don't know the signs of problems. Most people think that a cruising snake is a happy snake. Most people think that when the snakes are laying on top of each other they are "cuddling". Some people won't even notice if their snake is showing signs of an RI.

Now if someone came on here and said "hey I have been keeping ball pythons for a while and I really want to try cohabitation them. I think I know enough about these animals to pull it off". More power to this person.

It really just comes down to the people we are providing information for. This is generally a beginner forum and cohabitation isn't really a beginner subject. If anything this should go in "advanced husbandry".

[wilomn]

It really just comes down to the people we are providing information for. This is generally a beginner forum and cohabitation isn't really a beginner subject. If anything this should go in "advanced husbandry".

So, a newbie couldn't handle this information? They don't deserve this information? Is there some sort of time limit or number of snakes you need to keep as individuals before you get this information?

Oh yeah, who gets to decide who gets this information and when they get it?

[Kaorte]

So, a newbie couldn't handle this information? They don't deserve this information? Is there some sort of time limit or number of snakes you need to keep as individuals before you get this information?

Oh yeah, who gets to decide who gets this information and when they get it?

There is no almighty being that says "okay you know enough now".

That is up to the keeper to decide.

If they really want the information, they will know what questions to ask in order to get it. You surely haven't provided any helpful information that would help this user to better cohabitate their snakes.

Personally, I don't know enough to keep multiple snakes in an enclosure and I won't ever try it.

[stratus_020202]

You really do have to give the op some credit tho. It seams his cage is adequate size, and plenty of space to thermo regulate. They are also eating regularly, and not each other.

My only concern is the welfare of the female, and the pregnancy issue. She could probably carry a few eggs without problem. Like wilomn said, it's not always in our best interest to have big females, to get the most out of her. But, does the female get to choose how many eggs she has? Or how big those eggs are? I'm being serious, not trying to be a smart butt.

Is the weight of a female always going to determine the amount of eggs she has? Do most breeders wait for them to get big for the sole purpose of having as many eggs as possible? If it is true she is in no danger if she is bred (as well as the hatchlings), then there cohabitation is probably ok. However, there are still some questions the op should consider.

[Buttons]

Not only that, but is the poster prepared for eggs, is he (i apologize if you are a girl) ready for them to be dropped any day? Incubator or natural icubation? What about the other snakes? He does realize if they are turned by the other snakes the baby will die in the egg?

Isn't there a member on this site (Tim Murdoc.. I THINK) that is proving this isn't really true?

I remember seeing threads about it but haven't kept up with it.

[stratus_020202]

Isn't there a member on this site (Tim Murdoc.. I THINK) that is proving this isn't really true?

I remember seeing threads about it but haven't kept up with it.

Really? I didn't know that. I'll see if I can't check up on it though. I think balls are still fairly new to being kept as pets, there will be a lot of things that turn out to be false statements.

I think most of us don't want to be that person to prove the other wrong. It's the same as the bedding issue with pine and cedar. Are there any real true facts that it has affected a balls well being?

There's a word for these kind of people, but I don't know what it is. I just stick to the "normal" way. I know it works, and it's the safe way of doing things. Much like people who always wear their seatbelts, and hate roller coasters.

[Skiploder]

Personally, I don't know enough to keep multiple snakes in an enclosure and I won't ever try it.

Let's forget about ball pythons for a sec and talk about snakes in general.....

Until the internet got hot, I never heard of any problems with (or had any problems with) housing large drys together. I have always kept 1.2 trios, 1.1 pairz and two females together - always of similar size (I'll admit I've never kept two males together).

I'm always sure to provide them with large cages, multiple hides and large thermoregulation zones and there are certain protocols to follow when feeding them.

I'm talking years with these animals. I always make sure they are fed and have plenty of space and I have never had one single problem.

Now I go onto websites and hear about people warning not to do this with cribos and indigos because they'll cannibalize each other, they'll egg bind and stress each other out.

I converse on a fairly regular basis with some old school dry breeders who have followed similar practices and never had an issue - so where is all of this contrary information coming from?

Now let's go back to balls. Yes, for the average person keeping his balls in a blanket box rack, co-habitating makes no sense. While I am not big into regius, I know plenty of people who successfully cohabitate their balls in adequately sizes enclosures with no issues.

Let's try this: instead of everyone saying that it can't work, how about offering advice to the OP in case he wants to make it work?

1. You need an adequately sized cage.

2. Keeping 2 males together is not the best idea. 1.1 pairs or 0.2 pairs work best.

3. Multiple hides are needed, along with thermoregulation zones big enough to accomodate the number of snakes you are keeping together.

4. Only house healthy snakes together that have been through quarantine and are disease free.

5. Make sure to follow safety protocols when feeding.

There are more but you get the idea.

It's better to say it can work under the right conditions than to say it's a bad idea, or that it can't be done, or even shouldn't be done.


Just because you don't know enough to house multiple snake together doesn't mean that someone who wants to try it should be denied the information required to attempt it - right?

[cornball252]

It shouldnt be an issue if the cage is large enough and you dont have mixed sexes... But It would be better if you didnt due to stress. But like I said If it is large enough and I mena large, then I dont see why not.