Views on keeping more than one bp in an enclosure

[DIAMOND GEEZER]

to be honest it is an issue i overlooked. I will be bringing this up next time he is at my local surgery next week. many thanks

[Kaorte]

Generally communal housing is not recommended. Ball pythons are not social animals and gain nothing except stress from being housed together.

That being said, it is possible to house them together successfully but there are still many things that can go wrong.

Cannibalism is not unheard of.

[blackcrystal22]

This type of thread seems to show up about once a month or so.

It is not recommended, and is easier if one gets sick and to avoid breeding especially if you are not prepared for many baby ball pythons or a possible vet bill if the snake becomes egg bound.

Things do happen, and I just prefer to avoid the risk all-together. Plus it's easier to feed in their cages without having to move them every time.

[CoolioTiffany]

IMO, I wouldn't keep two snakes in the same enclosure, even if they are babies. Many things could go wrong, such as:

1- The spread of disease & sickness
2- The spread of internal & external parasites
3- Stress among each other
4- Breeding/Inbreeding
5- Female becoming eggbound
6- Fighting for dominance/mates
7- Cannibalism

[wilomn]

Cannibalism is not unheard of.

True. I think there are 2, count them, one and two, not three, not four, not more than 2, but 2. That I know of.

And let's talk about this crap about breeding too soon.

How many 4 egg clutches do we see pics of all the time?

We ALL know that a decent sized female, not even a huge one, can lay 7 or 8.

So, if so many are breeding when their girls can only produce half of what they will, wait for it, here it comes, WHEN THEY'RE FULLY MATURE, what is the big deal about keeping them with others? If a girl's gonna go, she's gonna go.

If she's not ready, she won't. I do not know of a single instance of a ball python dying from being accidentally bred while too young. How could she? If she's old enough to produce viable eggs, she's old enough to breed. If she's big enough to produce viable eggs, she's big enough to breed.

You people and your arbitrary use of facts to support your points of view make me laugh.

Show me some hard facts. Show me some studies that involve more than two animals. Show me anything that backs this up.

If they're healthy, if you're observant, if you're dedicated, you will have no problems keeping more than one snake in the same enclosure.

It is not recommended for the newbs, but it can be and certainly is done successfully all the time.

[Egapal]

True. I think there are 2, count them, one and two, not three, not four, not more than 2, but 2. That I know of.

And let's talk about this crap about breeding too soon.

How many 4 egg clutches do we see pics of all the time?

We ALL know that a decent sized female, not even a huge one, can lay 7 or 8.

So, if so many are breeding when their girls can only produce half of what they will, wait for it, here it comes, WHEN THEY'RE FULLY MATURE, what is the big deal about keeping them with others? If a girl's gonna go, she's gonna go.

If she's not ready, she won't. I do not know of a single instance of a ball python dying from being accidentally bred while too young. How could she? If she's old enough to produce viable eggs, she's old enough to breed. If she's big enough to produce viable eggs, she's big enough to breed.

You people and your arbitrary use of facts to support your points of view make me laugh.

Show me some hard facts. Show me some studies that involve more than two animals. Show me anything that backs this up.

If they're healthy, if you're observant, if you're dedicated, you will have no problems keeping more than one snake in the same enclosure.

It is not recommended for the newbs, but it can be and certainly is done successfully all the time.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/e...-reptiles.html

I know of multiple cases of 12 year old girls that get pregnant (humans), I know of cats and dogs that are bred to soon and have complications. I have first hand experience dealing with horses that were bred too soon. Your argument does not make any since. Just because it happens in the wild and can happen doesn't mean it should. Animals die all the time in the wild from disease and yes complications from pregnancy. If you want to roll the dice like the animals do in the wild then fine. I would rather go with the much better odds that we get when we use that thing on top of our shoulders. What good is having this large brain that insidentely causes problems with human birth all the time if we are not going to use it.

And once again. Sure BP's can be kept together. The OP asked for the forums thoughts. Well guess what, not everyone agrees. Spread of disease, egg binding, and cannibalism are all possible. The OP has already risked the first. Is currently risking the second due to one of the females at least being under breeding weight and yes cannibalism is rare but we would be remiss not to mention it.

As for proof of the above. Its not on us to prove anything. If you disagree then fine. If you care about our opinion (the OP did ask after all) then look it up. Judge for yourself the risks. In the end we each are responsible for our own animals and no one else's.

[wilomn]

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/e...-reptiles.html

I know of multiple cases of 12 year old girls that get pregnant (humans), I know of cats and dogs that are bred to soon and have complications. I have first hand experience dealing with horses that were bred too soon. Your argument does not make any since. Just because it happens in the wild and can happen doesn't mean it should. Animals die all the time in the wild from disease and yes complications from pregnancy. If you want to roll the dice like the animals do in the wild then fine. I would rather go with the much better odds that we get when we use that thing on top of our shoulders. What good is having this large brain that insidentely causes problems with human birth all the time if we are not going to use it.

And once again. Sure BP's can be kept together. The OP asked for the forums thoughts. Well guess what, not everyone agrees. Spread of disease, egg binding, and cannibalism are all possible. The OP has already risked the first. Is currently risking the second due to one of the females at least being under breeding weight and yes cannibalism is rare but we would be remiss not to mention it.

As for proof of the above. Its not on us to prove anything. If you disagree then fine. If you care about our opinion (the OP did ask after all) then look it up. Judge for yourself the risks. In the end we each are responsible for our own animals and no one else's.

And fish swim and birds fly.

Why do people always throw up comparisons with mammals when talking about reptile reproduction?

There is NO denying that early pregnancy in mammals can be detrimental to the female. But, and here's a key point you seem to have missed, we are NOT discussing mammals.

Reptiles do things a tad differently, especially the egg layers.

IF a female can lay viable 2 viable eggs and have no ill effects from it, is that not a successful breeding? It may not bring the owner as much profit as a 6 or 12 egg clutch, but if there is no difference in the females after laying, why is it better to have large clutches?

I'm not advocating breeding small or young females. I am saying that IF the female produces viable ova, is fertilized and then lays good eggs, how is this wrong? No one gave her hormone treatments. No one forced her to produce ova. She did it because she was ready to.

Otherwise, she would not have produced ova.

Opinions are fine, but lets try to be factual and species specific, not emotional and anthropomorphic.

[stratus_020202]

EGGBOUND

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...light=eggbound

This is why we should not breed until they/us are ready. I'm sure there are eggbound deaths in the wild also, even if a snake is sexually mature. There is also diseases spread also increasing the chance of deaths. I however, care more about mine, and don't want them to be another statistic. Just because "it's the way they do it in the wild" does not mean it is the way we should do it. Well, it's not the way i'm going to do it.

Not only that, but is the poster prepared for eggs, is he (i apologize if you are a girl) ready for them to be dropped any day? Incubator or natural icubation? What about the other snakes? He does realize if they are turned by the other snakes the baby will die in the egg?

Truthfully, I would trust anyone on here with experience in rasing balls, than anyone with a college degree (or book smarts).

[Skiploder]

IMO, I wouldn't keep two snakes in the same enclosure, even if they are babies. Many things could go wrong, such as:

I agree that a keeper who is not attentive and who is inexperienced should definately not keep two snakes together.

That, however, is a commentary on the skill level of the keeper - not on whether or not this is a bad or unsafe practice.

The things you state as risks really aren't if the keeper utilizes good husbandry practices and common sense.

1- The spread of disease & sickness

Make sure your snakes are healthy before you cohabitate them. Seems like common sense to me.

2- The spread of internal & external parasites

See (1) above.

3- Stress among each other

Provide multiple hides, multiple basking spots and a large enough enclosure to accomodate them.

4- Breeding/Inbreeding

Inbreeding - Don't house siblings together.
Breeding - Separate them when they come into season. I can tell when my female snakes are ripening, can you?

5- Female becoming eggbound

They can also become egg bound during normal breeding. Also, how many people have actually had an egg bound snake? How about an egg-bound snake caused by breeding it too young?

See answer to (4) above.

6- Fighting for dominance/mates

Are you serious? Ever seen this in ball pythons?

We're talking about snakes, not bighorn sheep or wolves. Show me one instance of dominant behavior in ball pythons.

7- Cannibalism

Feed your snakes regularly. Again, has anyone on this forum ever personally witnessed cannibalism between two well fed similarly sized ball pythons?

Didn't think so.

Opinions are fine. However opinions based on speculation and second or third hand rumors aren't really opinions.

It would be more accurate to warn a new owner that cohabitating snakes can be done very successfully, but is generally not recommended for new comers because it requires a considerable level of husbandry skill and experience.

Saying that it can't be done and listing a bunch of easily avoided BS second hand information isn't posting an opinion - it's regurgitating bad advice and spreading disinformation.

[Kaorte]

http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/about1343.html

YouTube - Ball Python Combat