New guy

[cgator]

hi everyone just thought id introduce myself my name is chris and i am the proud owner of 2 2year old BP's I have a 1300 gram black back male and i have a 870 gram normal with 72% albino het ... my female is a little small the girl i got her from use to underfeed her she use to give her 1 small rat every 3 months .. i am in the process of power feeding her now the female gets 1 small rat every week and the male gets 1 med rat every week they both eat live they wont touch f/t ... i am hoping that once the female gains some gerth that i can possibly get a nice morph out of them ... well just wanted to say hi and i look forward to getting help and helping others .... here are some pics of my BP's the first is the black back the second is my norm(her head is still in shed) and the third is of there home its a 75 gal (notice there both curled up under the cork hide how they both fit still amazes me he is on bottom and she is on top thats her fattest area but thats not his notice the size difference his thickest part is somehwere in the back of the hide)

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[cgator]

sorry i forgot to mention that they were both probed so i am sure of the sex

[tigerlily]

Welcome to the site. I wouldn't worry about 'power' feeding. Just offer a regular diet, and you'll be surprised by how quickly they put on weight. Another piece of advice would be to separate the two snakes. My first reason for this, is that you could actually have a breeding occur, and with your female being underweight she could become egg bound or it could just be too much for her body to take. Secondly, it's a pain in the rear to heat a cage of that size. While it's not impossible, it's insanely difficult. Also those dials are horribly inaccurate, and you are not measuring the temperatures the snakes will experience but two thirds of the way up the tank. Thirdly, ball pythons do better when there is one snake per cage. They are solitary creatures, and housing two snakes together will create competition and dominance issues.

I look forward getting to know you.

[cgator]

thanks for the welcome tigerlilly ... i appreciate your input ... i have had them for a little while now the female for about 6 months and the male for a month i have never had any problems maintaining the temp and humidity of the tank on the hot side it stays around 85-90 and on the cool side it stays 75-80 and my humidity is always around 60% and when they shed i increase it to around 75% I do have a digital thermometer on both the sides of the tank closer to the bottom under some decor i just have the dials to get a quick idea and just watch it ... i did have them looked at my female is not to small to breed she is just small compaired to him the vet said she should be fine ( i know i made it seem like she is tiny but not to tiny) she just dont have the gerth like him, as for keeping them seperate i do have a seperate setup but i have had no problem with them being together they actually act different when they are not together they like each other and when one doesnt want to be bothered the other will willingly leave it alone ... but when seperate they dont stop looking for each other ( like they are married ) ... if i do notice a problem i assure you they will be seperated but like they say if its not broke dont fix it ... they do eat in seperate tanks seperated from each other i feed them in rubbermaid containers

P.S .. just for an update i had my female re weight taken yesterday at my local petstore and she is now up to 1090 grams the 870 was her last weight 6 months ago

[dr del]

Hi,

Well she is still only just over two thirds of the weight I'd feel comfortable breeding her at to be honest. Especially if she is skinny compared to the male.

You say they act differently when you seperate them but have you kept them seperated for a week or two to let them settle into the new environment to see if that changes?

I'd also try and raise your temps by a couple of degrees if you can.

Did you quarantine the male in a seperate room for any length of time when you got him?

It's a good habit to get into to prevent problems and multiple vet bills etc.


dr del

[cgator]

i dont have any intentions to breed them as of now ... but if it happens then it happens .. and yes i did split them up not for a week but for 3 days and they didnt like it one bit the male got really nippy and the female wouldnt move around like usual all she did was sit on top of her hide and wouldnt go back into it unless he was in the tank ... i know its weird and unlikely but i guess these 2 just want to be together maybe they want to breed... after the winter months and breeding season is over ill try to seperate again and see if anything changes ... but my intent is to make them happy and as of right now when they are together they are happy ... even when they are out and roaming around my living room floor all they do is stick together and if i place one in the kitchen and one in the living room they come right back together within minutes ... i asked several pet stores and herp specialist about this and they all said that as long as they are not fighting to leave them be ... so thats my intent untill i notice any problem ... the 75gal tank has plenty of room for them to be seperate if they wish with plenty of hides yet they both cram into the same hide and no matter how much i seperate they keep going back so im at a lost ... so untill something dont seem right or they start to fight im leaving them be

[dr del]

Well they're your snakes.

For what it's worth the sharing hides is probably dominance and behavioral changes are perfectly normal when you change the environment and don't wait until they settle in and get used to the changes.

Just expect everyone to mention the co-habitation if you run into problems.


dr del

[cgator]

yea i appreciate all the help and info and i do have a seperate setup in case things get bad ... i did do some research on keeping them together and got several opinions from vets herp specialist / breeders and also several pet shop owners ... they all told me that as long as they are not fighting they should be ok but at the first sign of agression that i should split them in which is what i attend to do ... What i dont understand is (and im not trying to say that anyone in the forum dont know anything)why is it that in the pet stores and even some breeders and herps can keep the snakes together but as soon as you mention that you have 2 together that everyone suddenly thinks its a bad thing ... the way i see it is as long as they arent going at each other whats the big deal i seen snakes 2/3/4 maybe more in tanks together in the pet store for months and months and they dont have problems ... i have hides all over my setup they dont have to be up each others butts but thats what they want ... i do understand that they have dominance issues but as of since i got them they have been attached like glue and want to be together i cant take just one out at a time cause when i do the other is climbing up the tank trying to get out ... and when they are both out they both wrap around the same arm side by side ... well anyway ill just wait it out and see what happens things could change and if they do im already prepared to split them

[dr del]

Hi,

Perfectly valid questions.

The pet shops do it simply because it is cheaper for them. It is also supposed to be temporary and is usually done with hatchlings and juveniles rather than breeding age animals - not through any ethical choice it must be said, it's just that there are more hatchlings sold in petshops than larger animals.

The vet opinions really depend on how good the vets knowledge is about herps as well as their personal opinion.

I doubt any vet would recommend anything that could have negative impact on the animals intentionally. While discussing vets though I will point out that multiple animals in the same enclosure means any vets bills are automatically larger when anything but physical injury is concerned as he would need to see/ treat both animals. This is also where quarantine becomes even more important than ever - sharing a water source and encountering each others faeces should logically increase the risk of passing infections or parasites from one to the other compared to even seperate cages in the same room.

I don't know which breeders you have been talking to but I will say every big ball python breeder I know of keeps one animal per enclosure except for pairing during breeding attempts.

The dominance issue is tricky for us to get a definate bead on as, like most other things with these animals, it is much more subtle than we are used to with mammals.

The chances of them physically attacking each other in a way you describe is very slim indeed and would probably result from one snake smelling like a food item after feeding time.

Males will combat during breeding season on occasion but this generally takes the form of twining round each other trying to force the other snakes head down I think.

The reason we seem so against keeping them together is simply that there is no advantage to the snakes whatsoever but a couple of possible downsides.

The advantages are all to the keeper.

And I speak as someone who used to keep 3 adult females in one large enclosure - and yes I argued like heck about it when I first came here.

It seems really counter intuitive to us but these snakes really do thrive better in smaller single occupant setups than in huge shared enclosures.


dr del

[cgator]

yea its kinda a toss up cause i do agree with what you have to say but at the same time they just seem so happy together ... well anyway next weekend i am bringing them to a place around my area well actually its about an hour away thet specifically deal with bp's and i am also attending a reptile show this weekend where i can get a little more info but i do have to agree with what you are saying but so far i havent seen anything that i might have to worry about usually the female curls up between the male and they just lay there all day in the hide .. i havent seen any agression or any fighting as of yet but i will keep my eyes peeled ... but i do appreciate all your help and info and i have taken it into consideration ... i just dont like the idea of a rack system or keeping them in tubs i enjoy watching my snakes as well as others and i want to display there looks to anyone who enters my home