changing behaviors

[fidnemed]

About three months ago I got two new ball pythons from a friend of a friend, ages unknown. I already had a 5 year old male, Kenny (had him for 4 years). They are all approximately the same size, the new female, Maisha is a bit bigger than the others and the new male, Munene is thicker than Kenny. The new guys were quarantined for a month, then I took all of them to the "Serpentarium" for checkups, and they were all pronounced healthy. For the past two months they have all been housed together in a big 6' long glass tank. The two new guys eat a small to medium rat every week and Kenny eats whenever he feels like it. (Last winter I didn't have a place to live, so he had to bounce around my friends houses, and this stress set him off his food (as expected). He last ate three months ago, but he's healthy and active, I'm not worried about him, and was told at his checkup not to worry as well.)

This week however, I've had some changing behaviors. Today is feeding day, and Maisha refused to eat (she's been a great eater) and Munene ate two rats. (previously they both ate one and refused a second if offered) Then after I returned them to their home, Kenny and Maisha started combating. Munene got in on it a little, then went and curled in the corner. They did that for about 20 min, then calmed down then again an hour later. Now their all back to normal.

Does this mean Maisha is male, not female like I was told? Very possible.

The temp is generally 80-85 in the cage, with an uth in one corner (I don't know the surface temp above the heater). They have a large dog bowl for water, a log to hide under and another log to climb, plus a small hide. I use coco bark strata (the kind you get wet and it expands...) so tank has humidity. They generally hang out by the heater right after they eat, then as the week progresses move towards the cool side and on saturdays Maisha is poking her head at the screens "begging for food".

I've only had these guys three months, so "normal" is hard to guess. I have done lots of reading and talking to other bp owners and think housing them together is fine for my situation. I don't mind a clutch of eggs, I have the time and money as well as homes for offspring...

Can I just let nature take it's course? All I've read tells me so... I'd like your opinions (please be nice) and recommendations for better temp control. (Right now the uth is always on and a red basking light is turned on above it during the day (sporadically). I know this is not ideal. I also know I should add another hide or two.

Thanks

[Mike Schultz]

First thing I'd do is seperate them as soon as possible.

After that I'd get thermostats on all three cages so that you can control temperatures easily.

[fidnemed]

Why do you recommend separating them?

[dr del]

Honestly?

You have three snakes in one tank and don't seem sure of the sexes - splitting them all up is pretty much the best advice anyone can give you.

Your best bet would be to set all three up in tubs in fairly simple surroundings (two hides and a waterbowl on a paper substrate ) until you get a reliable sexing done and they are all eating fairly consistently and doing well.

Then you can think about whether you are set up to breed and if the female is ready as well in terms of weight, age and condition.

But housing them seperately is the way forward in any case - I used to have multiple BP's in a 5' x2' x2' wooden viv and though they were doing fine.

I moved them to a rack system housed individually and they really are doing far better in ways I just wouldn't have thought. I argued like heck about it when I first came here.


dr del

[fidnemed]

And I don't know much about thermostats, tell me about them and does any one have any recommended models?

[dr del]

Hi,

Basically the most important things you need to know about your enclosure are security, temps at various areas, humidity and how the snake feels about it.

The acurite weatherstation with probe that costs about $12 from walmart will tell you the temp at the base unit and the end of the probe and the humidity at the base unit - so it is invaluable when dialing in the tank.

The thermostat is designed to regulate the heat pad to make sure it keeps the temps at the right level and avoid either burning your snake or keeping it too cold to thrive.

There are a few options ranging from the zoomed 500R at about $25 to the more trusted units like the ranco and johnson themostats at around $75 - $85 ( I think ) up to the cream of the crop proportional thermostats like the herpstat and helix for $110+

The good thing is thermostats last a while and can be moved from enclosure to enclosure as you upgrade etc. so it is a good investment.

They can also control multiple heat mats as long as they are the same size and the total wattage does not exceed the thermostats limits.

Have a read through the caresheet and see what other questions it brings up.


dr del

[fidnemed]

You still don't have me convinced to separate them. Even if I have my genders switched on the two new snakes, they are both fine as far as age weight and condition to breed. I appreciate you telling me separating them worked for you, but could you explain what you mean when you say they are doing far better now?

[fidnemed]

I have read the caresheet and others on other websites, and have read books and talked to many breeders/owners. Based on this I have decided in my particular circumstances housing them together is fine. Feel free to disagree with me (that is why I'm here, this forum seems to be very anti co-housing so you must all have good reasons...lol) but please tell me why you feel this way. I'm not by any means an expert, but I'm not naive about bp either. I'm sorry if my post made it seem that way....

[dr del]

Sure,

They eat far more reliably for the most part. Previously I had to seperate to feed them obviously which meant I had to have a fair few feeding containers which spent nearly all their time completely unused.

Then, with the smell of food in the air I had to reach in and seperate out the three females into seperate tanks, feed them, wash my hands so I didn't smell like dinner, then put them all back in the main tank again.

This was fine for the smallest female who is completely unphased by anything but the middle female would occasionally get freaked by the move and refuse to eat. The big female is such a complete woose I ended up having to leave her in the main tank and trying to feed her in there - which meant no one else could go back in until she deigned to eat and even when she had I was then putting snakes in feeding mode into a tank that smelled of rat.

When one snake pooped all three had to be moved to a temp container while I cleaned the tank which meant each snake got moved around on averadge 66% more than they needed to - again not a good idea with nervous nellies and the small female always assumed she was getting fed again.

I did at least keep the male seperated - until I had to clean his tank one day and figured it would be fine.

The small female ended up laying three eggs but retaining another three with some nasty results - so much so this is the first year I have bred her since as I was worried it would happen again.

The humidity was a nightmare to try and get right in the huge tank so I ended up using a humid hide and still had some horrible sheds.

I thought it was fine they all coiled up together - it never occured to me they could be competing for resources or trying to dominate on another at all.

When one of the females (Cleo ) developed an RI I learned the hard way I needed to have all three checked for it not just her as they shared a waterbowl, hide and pooped all over each other. Expensive lesson that one.

All the while people kept explaining to me why rack systems were best and individual housing was better than what I had.

They finally convinced me to try it so I built myself a rack that housed 8 snakes individually in the floor space I had previously had 3 communally housed in.

After the settling in period and a few foibles (the small female wasn't sure about eating in her normal tank after 5 years of "going out to dinner" ) I started noticing the difference.

They didn't roam about as much - I had to ask to discover this meant they were less stresed.

Feeding became a lot easier - the length of time one took to eat didn't matter at all.

I could leave an F/T in overnight and still know who ate it if it was gone in the morning.

That single fact solved the big nervous nellies eating problems for the most part - I open her tub show her the F/T rat from no less a distance than a foot, lay it on the paper in the middle of the tub (not near the front ), close the tub and 20 minutes later it will be gone.

When they are shedding I generally do not have to do a single thing about it and they still shed perfectly. If they do look like it is going to be a rough shed I can increase the humidity on a per snake basis.

The nervous nellie is far less nervous in general and will even tolerate handling without much of a panic - previously it was like trying to hold an eel on an escape mission with a 50% chance of pee.

I now have the control over who breeds with what - and they seem to like the idea too. This lil thing popped out this morning;



And I know this sounds like a small thing - but I know who poops, pees and when. And unless it is during a breeding date only one snake ever needs washed as a result.

I liked it so much I moved every snake I own to a rack system as quickly as I could - and am waiting on the wood to build a hatchling rack as we type with plans for a second small ball python rack (6 slot ) as soon as the coffers refill to grow out hold backs and new purchase males.

Also, and this came as a surprise, my electricity bill went down despite the number of snakes going up.

Wow, this turned into a bit of a novel.

Sorry about that.


dr del

[fidnemed]

Thanks for the novel, it's the kinda response I was looking for. I currently feed them outside their tank, Kenny sometimes in the tank while the others are out eating, depending on his mood. They eat live, I try to imitate nature as much as possible, I would feed african soft furs or gerbils, but their super illegal here in CA and with my dad being an ag inspector he would chew my head off... I avoid the hands smelling like food issue by having my bf handle the snakes while I handle the rats. And I have no issue with the time it takes to feed them, it's an event we look forward to every week...

Altho I have a lot of pets, I also have a lot of time and pay close attention to them. So far I haven't had any issues with knowing whose poop is whose and who shed what... And I just reach in and take the poop out, no need to move all the snakes to clean.... Same goes with sheds.

Do I have a humidity issue if they are all shedding normal?

As far as the health issue, I understand and agree completely that one sick snake means 3 sick snakes. This is the only reason that has ever had me considering separating them. The people who are pro co-housing say if your snakes have all they need and are happy and healthy, why would they get sick?

Please don't take this as me shootinging back at you that all your reason are wrong and this is why (even if it sounds like it, sorry). Just trying to put as much info out there as possible, so people can form as accurate as possible responses.

What I'd really like to hear is reasons why I can't just leave them all in there and let them mate, have and "raise" their young? (I know snakes don't raise their young and I'm guessing the babies would get eaten if left with the big adults) Has anyone had this happen as well? I'm just a pet owner, not trying to make any money or anything. But I have had many species breed in my care, just not snakes.

Gorgeous snake btw