My GOD! Do prices usually slice in half every year!!!!

[JenEric Reptiles]

I think some of it has to do with the economy......but i think it is more to do with people getting into snakes as a business and mass producing snakes and just breeding a whole bunch of co doms and doms with a whole bunch of normals.........and thats why he doms/ co doms are dropping faster.....and we all know ressecive take a little more $ and time to "mass produce"......

That is where selective breeding comes in and selective buying come in........
even if i see a pastel for $100 im not going to jump on it......i want a quality animal! so i may enjoy its beauty and if i decide to breed it with another nice high quality animal i have high quality babies..........

not saying peoples animals are low quality but i see a lot of low quality stuff out there and that is one reason they are cheaper...........and that may be what someone may like as a pet.........but when some one buys that animal and mass produces that low quality animal to a bunch of normals and floods the market with low quality babies just to make a quick buck and lowers the market cause now he has 30+ low end pastels...........and he doesnt want to keep them cause its to much $ and space for him the are the people you shouldent buy from.................
and i have no respect for that kind of person...........
if your a hobbiest and doing it for pleasure and selling beind closed door......fine...

my 2 cents! flame on if you want ...............

[euphuistical]

I think some of it has to do with the economy......but i think it is more to do with people getting into snakes as a business and mass producing snakes and just breeding a whole bunch of co doms and doms with a whole bunch of normals.........and thats why he doms/ co doms are dropping faster.....and we all know ressecive take a little more $ and time to "mass produce"......

That is where selective breeding comes in and selective buying come in........
even if i see a pastel for $100 im not going to jump on it......i want a quality animal! so i may enjoy its beauty and if i decide to breed it with another nice high quality animal i have high quality babies..........

not saying peoples animals are low quality but i see a lot of low quality stuff out there and that is one reason they are cheaper...........and that may be what someone may like as a pet.........but when some one buys that animal and mass produces that low quality animal to a bunch of normals and floods the market with low quality babies just to make a quick buck and lowers the market cause now he has 30+ low end pastels...........and he doesnt want to keep them cause its to much $ and space for him the are the people you shouldent buy from.................
and i have no respect for that kind of person...........
if your a hobbiest and doing it for pleasure and selling beind closed door......fine...

my 2 cents! flame on if you want ...............

Sooooooooo true. At Daytona I saw pastels that I needed to read the actual sign saying they were pastels to tell the difference between them and normals.


But when I bought my pastels (a 200g insanely high yellow male and a puny little female that was pretty dull that was thrown in to the deal) and she remained kinda dull for a few months. But about a month or two ago she shed and was immediately at least as bright as my male with even better blushing! I was really surprised not to mention incredibly pleased. Now I just can't wait to make some supers with those two.

So I guess you can't always tell how they will turn out, but codoms really are being exploited and a grading system is definitely going to be needed. We as a community can help with that. If the average person looking for a spider, pastel or any other codom knew what a good one was supposed to look like and what a crap mass bred one tended to look like the problem would work it self out. If no one is buying those crappy mass produced codoms people will stop breeding them.

It is a stinky problem though, and I really don't know the best answer.

[JenEric Reptiles]

i understand animals lighten and darken with age....and selling a hatchling is hard to tell the potential .......but i see pastels that look like nice normals.......

but hen you have a person getting into herps or ball pythons or whatever it is.....and buy a low end animal or animals and mass producing and other people getting into this as only as a bussiness and know nothing about these beauties and only see dollar signs.........and dump low end animals and then the next wanna be get rich quick person comes along tries to do the same thing and repeats the process......

I can see a hobbiest or repituble breeders or small breeder selling animals at a different range by grade but having multipule animals for sale at a low price to dump them becuase its only a paycheck to them and have no love for the hobby or animal is not good
i see people all the time asking i want to start a snake breeding bussiness what should i get? do i need racks? not even reading or doing any research those are the ones that just see $$$$$$$
dont get me wrong its good that someone wants to learn and breed but GOOGLE read, research have a plan, its people like that ,that ruin everything

buy a normal and learn first, you buy a bunch of animals ,then find out its not for you then dump your animals.they dont care bout the animals,they dont care bout the herp community they dont care bout nothing but themselves and money!
just like a puppy mill i disagree with those as well!!!!!!!!
i dont really care if anyone gets mad because its the truth and if your offended by it then your guilty of what i say !

so if your going to breed or have a business buy quality!!!!!!!! and breed what you would be able to keep or trade instead of dumping trying to get rich

thats the problem too people think they are going to make mega booku bucks doing this and then they find out they cant...........and start dumping it...........

think if it aint selling hold on to it raise it use it in breeding later sell breeder size animals.......for more $$$$ gain and uphold the respect from other breeders and hobbiest by doing that and bring the market back up..... or stabilize it make sense? yes!

and if you dont have the room or experince you shouldnet be mass breeding..........or even breeding............HAVE A PLAN if it dont sell.......it will help everyone in the long run

every good bussiness had a plan ..........

[euphuistical]

i understand animals lighten and darken with age....and selling a hatchling is hard to tell the potential .......but i see pastels that look like nice normals.......

but hen you have a person getting into herps or ball pythons or whatever it is.....and buy a low end animal or animals and mass producing and other people getting into this as only as a bussiness and know nothing about these beauties and only see dollar signs.........and dump low end animals and then the next wanna be get rich quick person comes along tries to do the same thing and repeats the process......

I can see a hobbiest or repituble breeders or small breeder selling animals at a different range by grade but having multipule animals for sale at a low price to dump them becuase its only a paycheck to them and have no love for the hobby or animal is not good
i see people all the time asking i want to start a snake breeding bussiness what should i get? do i need racks? not even reading or doing any research those are the ones that just see $$$$$$$
dont get me wrong its good that someone wants to learn and breed but GOOGLE read, research have a plan, its people like that ,that ruin everything

buy a normal and learn first, you buy a bunch of animals ,then find out its not for you then dump your animals.they dont care bout the animals,they dont care bout the herp community they dont care bout nothing but themselves and money!
just like a puppy mill i disagree with those as well!!!!!!!!
i dont really care if anyone gets mad because its the truth and if your offended by it then your guilty of what i say !

so if your going to breed or have a business buy quality!!!!!!!! and breed what you would be able to keep or trade instead of dumping trying to get rich

thats the problem too people think they are going to make mega booku bucks doing this and then they find out they cant...........and start dumping it...........

think if it aint selling hold on to it raise it use it in breeding later sell breeder size animals.......for more $$$$ gain and uphold the respect from other breeders and hobbiest by doing that and bring the market back up..... or stabilize it make sense? yes!

and if you dont have the room or experince you shouldnet be mass breeding..........or even breeding............HAVE A PLAN if it dont sell.......it will help everyone in the long run

every good bussiness had a plan ..........

Amen. Good analogy to puppy mills. I really hate breeders who only started because they thought they could make a buck. I am still small time, hope to have a few clutches this year and go from there and I'd be satisfied if I break even or get close to that. I got nice rack systems, good husbandry and I love herps and the community. So sad that some people look at a beautiful piece of living genetic art work and just see $$$$.

[JenEric Reptiles]

i mean if you can make $ to support your hobby or make a few bucks or make it big go ahead but dont think your gonna get rich quick..........this aint for you!

[WingedWolfPsion]

I think there was a time in the ball python market that utterly spoiled people rotten, because I see people saying this all the time: "You can't get rich quick doing this!"

Exactly how QUICK is quick to you guys? You do realize that in any normal investment arena, a 25% return in one year is COMPLETELY INSANE, right? And that's not an unreasonable goal if you purchase the right animals--you could even manage to hit as high as 50%. No, you can't make back the 20 grand you invested in one year (particularly if part of it went to equipment). But you can make it back in 3 or 4 years. The return comes on a 3 to 4 year cycle, which is how long it takes to raise a ball from hatching to breeding. Most people struggling along making just enough to care for the animals are breeding for the enjoyment of the hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that. But if you actually buy in as an investment, YES, you can make it back. It's not guaranteed (but what investment, apart from government bonds, IS?)

Stop scaring off your future customers/competitors by telling them that there's no money in it. That's not true, and you know it. You can't get more people involved in the hobby by shooing them away. If you want the prices to fall more slowly, get people interested in investing in the ball python market. Making it seem unattractive to scare away competitors doesn't WORK for this business. Your competitors ARE your customers.

You're right--no other business IS like this. It's like a big scaly pyramid scheme with a few big names like NERD at the top, and the pet trade at the bottom as a release valve. The more people you can get interested in keeping and breeding balls, the more customers you will have, and the better the prices will hold. I love reptiles, and ball pythons are definitely wonderful animals. The fact that they make great pets is a large part of the reason all of this keeps working the way it does.

Encourage people to get involved. Give them realistic expectations--not discouragement, or overinflated ideas of what's possible. Above all, stop trying to scare off people who look like they might want a 'piece of the action'. Tell them how to do it right, don't tell them not to do it.

[DesignerBP]

i saw grade A mojaves at the westchester show last weekend for 150. jaw dropped considering i paid 650 in 06 for mine and that was deal lol. I have a spider my friend paid 1600 for in 05 and now even as a proven breeder i can only get 400 tops which is why he gave it to me and got into boas instead. it be nice if the market becomes stable but i guess theres too much new stuff coming out and breeders need to move what they have.

[DesignerBP]

I think there was a time in the ball python market that utterly spoiled people rotten, because I see people saying this all the time: "You can't get rich quick doing this!"

Exactly how QUICK is quick to you guys? You do realize that in any normal investment arena, a 25% return in one year is COMPLETELY INSANE, right? And that's not an unreasonable goal if you purchase the right animals--you could even manage to hit as high as 50%. No, you can't make back the 20 grand you invested in one year (particularly if part of it went to equipment). But you can make it back in 3 or 4 years. The return comes on a 3 to 4 year cycle, which is how long it takes to raise a ball from hatching to breeding. Most people struggling along making just enough to care for the animals are breeding for the enjoyment of the hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that. But if you actually buy in as an investment, YES, you can make it back. It's not guaranteed (but what investment, apart from government bonds, IS?)

Stop scaring off your future customers/competitors by telling them that there's no money in it. That's not true, and you know it. You can't get more people involved in the hobby by shooing them away. If you want the prices to fall more slowly, get people interested in investing in the ball python market. Making it seem unattractive to scare away competitors doesn't WORK for this business. Your competitors ARE your customers.

You're right--no other business IS like this. It's like a big scaly pyramid scheme with a few big names like NERD at the top, and the pet trade at the bottom as a release valve. The more people you can get interested in keeping and breeding balls, the more customers you will have, and the better the prices will hold. I love reptiles, and ball pythons are definitely wonderful animals. The fact that they make great pets is a large part of the reason all of this keeps working the way it does.

Encourage people to get involved. Give them realistic expectations--not discouragement, or overinflated ideas of what's possible. Above all, stop trying to scare off people who look like they might want a 'piece of the action'. Tell them how to do it right, don't tell them not to do it.

Makes alot of sense. great viewpoint.

[JenEric Reptiles]

i never said there is no money in this and im not shooooing anyone away............
i dont think im scaring anyone away......and if i did scare someone away it was a bad business person who never cared anyway.............because if someone was really into it then they would go for it regardless.......what i say.........because they love the animals.........
I think the negativity and bashing here scare away more people then me making a point of people mass producing.............of low quality animals.........
So dont try and make me the bad guy saying im scaring anyone off future customers etc..........
But i can see where your mind set is $$$$$$$$$$$............you care bout future customers............not someone to share our hobby with........share our love our passion......

there is money to be made and if you can score a cheap animal go for .........and if you want to dive in head first into something you know nothing about go for it..............

If you want to join a awsome community of people.......Welcome,If you want to get into a rare hobby and in time can pay for itself Welcome, If you want to try and make a good business and have fun doing someting you love Welcome

i have no means of scaring anyone.........but in any aspect mammal or reptile,
research what your getting into,hubandry,diet,breeding etc....whatever your intentions are for the animal.take a few days months and research........

IM only discouraging mass producing and irresponsability!

so your saying if we were talking dogs here and someone said..........hey i got 10 grand where should i start...........i have no clue about raising dogs,breeding dogs,have no sufficent space on housing them, but hey give me a pair of silky terriers, a pair of pitbulls, a pair of etc etc.........
i let them go to town mass produce them and just dump em all over sell em at rock bottem prices just to keep em moving and just keep letting breed ...............and cycle it over and over how responsable is that?????????????
That is why real pet fanciest have contract when selling the animals as opposed to puppy mills...........

im sure any NEW enthusiest can understand that and agree and is not being scared off? i said if you want to do it as a business have a plan........

there is money to be made fun to be had and ne morphs to be found...............so by all means have some fun and join us...........!

[WingedWolfPsion]

Oh, please. Get over the Either/Or mindset. I love reptiles. I chose to turn it into a business, and as a business it's going to make $$$, or it would be a failure. There is nothing wrong with breeding reptiles as a business. It doesn't have to be 'just a hobby' and breeding snakes for ONLY the fun of it doesn't make a person morally superior. A person isn't automatically consigned to the ranks of uncaring user if they are running a business to make money.

Yes, I care about future customers. Any business person SHOULD. I care that they get healthy and well-bred animals, and that they come into owning ball pythons--whether as a pet, a hobby, or a business--knowing what to expect, with full knowledge and all the tools they need to be successful. I also don't want them to think that if they're considering making it a business--even a small hobby business--that they don't have a chance of success. Or that there is something wrong with them if they actually consider money.

When did making money turn into a BAD THING? I must have missed the memo on that.

A bad businessperson does not factor in routine expenses. They don't make a business plan. They don't care for the welfare of the animals beyond their monetary value. They plan no more than 1 year in advance.

A good businessperson sets aside a budget not only for routine cleaning and care, but also for veterinary expenses, extra food for any snakes that don't sell right away, and all the little bits and pieces that are necessary to keep snakes not just healthy but thriving. Because superior animals are going to bring a superior price--and, oh yeah--it's the right thing to do. Reputation is important, as well as how well you sleep at night.

So all this talk about business breeders not caring for the animals is complete bull pocky. If they're going to actually be around a while, they had darned well better care for each and every one of them. It's a stupid business to get into if you don't love the animals, and if people think you don't love them, you're not going to be successful at it.

"Mass producing" is the only way to breed reptiles and make a living at it. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. NERD and BHB certainly mass produce ball pythons. I don't see anyone faulting them for it, because they do it right. These aren't dogs or cats. The moment there are not other breeders waiting to buy them up, their prices will fall, and they'll enter into the pet trade. Most purebred Dogs and cats are in the pet trade from the moment they're born.