"True" Axanthic Theory

[AaronP]

WARNING: If you don't have a basic understanding or a firm grasp of Ball Python Genetics I wouldn't bother reading on from here, you have been warned!

This is a conversation that I had with a couple of my breeder friends (more specifically Justin Kobylka & Trey Barnard [mxrider42]) that I would like to share with everyone. Okay so most everyone knows that not all lines of Axanthic are compatible IE Jolliff Axanthic & VPI Axanthic. And everyone knows that the reason why we refer to them as "Axanthic" is because they appear to be lacking specific pigments however as Axanthics age they tend to "Brown Out" which unless you've seen plenty of adult Axanthics you're not likely to be able to immediately tell that the specimen is in fact an Axanthic.

Now this doesn't always apply I've seen some VERY nice VPI & Jolliff Axanthics that held their color well into Adulthood but I believe those are the exceptions, not the rule. Now because VPI & Jolliff Axanthic are incompatible that must mean that the genetic code that makes up a Jolliff and a VPI Axanthic sit in 2 different locations right? Well if that is true than the TSK (The Snake Keeper) Axanthic must also sit in a 3rd location.

Now keeping all of that in mind would a Double Homozygous combination of any of those 3 lines make a "True" Axanthic, meaning an animal that is born with no Brown Pigment and as it ages does not "Brown Out"? I know that Michael Jolliff may have produced a Double Homozygous VPI & Jolliff Axanthic but I haven't heard too much about that project other than he thinks he has made a Double Recessive animal.

If not would a combination of the 3 different lines make such an animal? I know there are more than just those 3 lines but I am naming the ones that I know for a fact are incompatible with 1 another. (For instance NERD has their own Line, but it's compatible with the VPI Line) What do you think?

Personally I think a combination of the VPI & Jolliff Axanthics could produce some very cool "True" Axanthics, only problem wth that is that you'd have to breed them to VPI Axanthics or Jolliff Axanthics to prove that they aren't a single gene animal or just "Het" for the other line. Having trouble following? REfer to the chart below:

Alright so let's say you already have your Double Het. VPI & Jolliff Axanthics, and you breed them together and for giggles we'll say you got a 3.3 and you didn't do so hot on the Odds with only 1.0 Axanthic, and the other 2.3 are P. Double Het for 2 lines of Axanthic. But to illustrate how much work it would require to prove this single animal to be double recessive check out the possibilities list:

1.0 Visual Axanthic from Breeding Dbl Het Jolliff & VPI Axanthics.:

Visual Axanthic x Proven VPI Axanthic - Possible Offspring:

• All Axanthics [Means he is at least a VPI Axanthic]
• All Normals [Means He is actually a Jolliff Axanthic]
• Some Normals and Some Axanthics [This would mean that he is a Jolliff Axanthic But is also Het. for VPI Axanthic

Visual Axanthic x Proven Jolliff Axanthic - Possible Offspring:

• All Axanthics [Means he is at least a Jolliff Axanthic]
• All Normals [Means He is actually a VPI Axanthic]
• Some Normals and Some Axanthics [This would mean that he is a VPI Axanthic But is also Het. for Jolliff Axanthic

Have a headache yet? No? Well how about this: The problem with this is that Theoretically you could get a clutch of All "Normals" OR All Axanthics and the animal actually be Het. for the corresponding line. For Example: If you breed that Visual Boy to the Proven Breeder VPI Axanthic you may produce All Normal looking animals, well that doesn't necessarily mean that the Visual Animal IS NOT Het for VPI Axanthic it would actually take multiple breedings to positively prove it out. And the same goes for the flip side, if you breed that same pairing and get all Axanthics it is possible that the odd gods saw it fit to give you all Visuals from a Heterozygous to Homozygous pairing.

Now after reading all of that I ask you this: Even if it does make a better axanthic is it really worth all that extra work? My examples are assuming you get a male which time wise would be a lot quicker to prove than a Female.

PS: This doesn't necessarily have to apply to JUST Axanthics, there are multiple lines of Hypo are are Incompatible as well.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Since they all brown out, why would combining the genes remove the brown?

I believe the key is Tyrosinase. 'Albino' balls don't have it--Caramel albinos DO have it. Axanthics DO have--all the lines found so far, at least.
If you want to make a 'true axanthic', you'll have to find a T- axanthic. Maybe one is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You could also produce a true axanthic if you can find another ball morph that is JUST T-, and combine it with one of the 3 axanthic lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

[NorthernRegius]

Honestly,
Combining multiple lines of Axanthic would only aid in compatibility as the alleles reside at different locuses. Since the function of this colour is to suppress the expression of yellow pigment; if you want brighter Axanthics a little outside help is needed. IMHO look to the bight morphs, Super Pastels, Fire/Sulfurs these mutations stay bright or even brighten with age. although they have yellow tones, the Axanthic gene pairs (reguardless of locus) would suppress that colour, giving you back a more visible result, no?

[muddoc]

Since they all brown out, why would combining the genes remove the brown?

I believe the key is Tyrosinase. 'Albino' balls don't have it--Caramel albinos DO have it. Axanthics DO have--all the lines found so far, at least.
If you want to make a 'true axanthic', you'll have to find a T- axanthic. Maybe one is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You could also produce a true axanthic if you can find another ball morph that is JUST T-, and combine it with one of the 3 axanthic lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

You beat me to the punch. I believe tyrosinase is they key to the bleed of "red"(in my opinion) colors that attribute to the browning. I have quite a few adult Axanthics (all VPI line) and the vary in their "browness". However, in my eye, none of them have yellow pigment, and to my knowledge, noone has eve been able to isolate or intensify any erythrophores in Ball Pythons.

[WingedWolfPsion]

You almost broke my head, there, I had to do some googling. <lol> (Hey, I only had high school biology).

I agree, I don't think ball pythons have true red pigment.

[AaronP]

Since they all brown out, why would combining the genes remove the brown?

I believe the key is Tyrosinase. 'Albino' balls don't have it--Caramel albinos DO have it. Axanthics DO have--all the lines found so far, at least.
If you want to make a 'true axanthic', you'll have to find a T- axanthic. Maybe one is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You could also produce a true axanthic if you can find another ball morph that is JUST T-, and combine it with one of the 3 axanthic lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

I didn't think about this. Wes Harris recently hatched a Caramel Axanthic so I guess in a couple of years he'll be able to answer this question .

[WingedWolfPsion]

I'm really excited to see that one as an adult, to be honest--it SHOULD only have brown coloring--nothing else!

[Kevin_Hornby]

Just buy a black axanthic and be happy .

[NorthernRegius]

How does that increase the Black & white contrast in an Axanthic? If you want the brown suppressed why not pick higher yellow morphs that don't show brown & then use the Axanthic to erase the yellow? Wouldn't that work?

[AaronP]

Just buy a black axanthic and be happy .

I love me some Black Axanthic, but it's still a very dark animal, I wouldn't mind having a nice light animal like this:



That holds it's color.