Put it down already

[wilomn]

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994: http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21): http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University: http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley: http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc

So, there is no law.

Which makes you a liar.

Since you will lie so freely, I choose view ALL that you post with a high degree of suspicion.

[wilomn]

I think we should keep in mind that it is not just the TIME it takes for a reptile to die, but the sensory experience as well. While a euthanasia performed by a veterinarian may take longer, the drugs used do not create pain in the animal; indeed, the do the opposite, they are powerful analgesics. So, if a veterinarian gives a lethal injection of a drug with the intent of euthanasia, analgesia will take place before death. This means that the animal will not experience pain, but will slowly lose consciousness, followed by the cessation of heart function and brain function. The route of the injection will determine how long this process takes. If it is directly in the blood stream it is quicker than if it is in the body cavity or liver, for example.

Freezing may be quicker in some cases, but there is no analgesia involved. The types of tissues most affected by cooler temperature are the cells involved in muscle function, not nervous function. So while the reptile may not be able to move, there is still neurological function, and having your tissues freeze is certainly painful. Even at very low temperatures reptile species retain consciousness. Indeed, there have been many scientific studies conducted on pain and function at low temperatures.

Again, I emphasize that there have been scientific studies conducted on reptile pain. And yes, “we” do know things about what reptiles feel and whether it is painful. Many people do research on this kind of stuff for a living.

You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

[Eventide]

So, there is no law.

Which makes you a liar.

Since you will lie so freely, I choose view ALL that you post with a high degree of suspicion.

I do not intentionally lie, thank you very much. I also find it fascinating that instead of arguing logically with my comments and the sources I cited, you prefer, instead, to personally attack me and take the easy route and just dismiss me without any shred of evidence that what I have been saying about freezing is wrong. Way to go.

My friend stated the "against the law" comment. I will ask her for additional citations.

[wilomn]

i do not intentionally lie, thank you very much. I also find it fascinating that instead of arguing logically with my comments and the sources i cited, you prefer, instead, to personally attack me and take the easy route and just dismiss me without any shred of evidence that what i have been saying about freezing is wrong. Way to go.

My friend stated the "against the law" comment. I will ask her for additional citations.

lol

[accidental777]

I just had the unpleasant experience of having a pet euthanized about two years ago. Actually for the same reason this thread originally started. A breeder sold Buster (springer spaniel) after beating him severely or knowing that he was born with a neurological problem.
Buster was dumped by his previous owners, my family and I made an attempt to take him in as a family pet. Buster was a fearful animal, fearful of men, his water/food bowl, leafs, everything. Towards the end, he had bitten my brother twice, unprovoked. We decided, that after a year of hard work that it would be best to have him put down.
He was taken to our vet where he was first given a sedative. The sedative made him start to have convulsions (proof of brain trauma, or genetic malfunction). Then, the "lethal" injection was given.
In the end we made the right decision. Clearly, this animal (through abuse or otherwise) was finally put out of his misery. I actually feel a lot of guilt because I tried for so long to help him. He lived a very unpleasant life, even after provided with a good home.

[wilomn]

I just had the unpleasant experience of having a pet euthanized about two years ago. Actually for the same reason this thread originally started. A breeder sold Buster (springer spaniel) after beating him severely or knowing that he was born with a neurological problem.
Buster was dumped by his previous owners, my family and I made an attempt to take him in as a family pet. Buster was a fearful animal, fearful of men, his water/food bowl, leafs, everything. Towards the end, he had bitten my brother twice, unprovoked. We decided, that after a year of hard work that it would be best to have him put down.
He was taken to our vet where he was first given a sedative. The sedative made him start to have convulsions (proof of brain trauma, or genetic malfunction). Then, the "lethal" injection was given.
In the end we made the right decision. Clearly, this animal (through abuse or otherwise) was finally put out of his misery. I actually feel a lot of guilt because I tried for so long to help him. He lived a very unpleasant life, even after provided with a good home.

This goes far towards being a Good Person. You did it for the dog and suffered throughout, but did it anyway.

[wilomn]

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994: http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21): http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University: http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley: http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc

I'm going to guess that your friend gave you these as well.

Do you favor parrots, by chance?

[Serpent_Nirvana]

You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

I have no idea whether anesthesia is used for lethal injection in human beings.

I can tell you than in animal euthanasia, the animal is put under general anesthesia prior to intracardiac injection. If someone was sticking a giant needle directly into your heart, you wouldn't want to be conscious for it, either.

Mader et. al. states that RAPID freezing (being dipped in liquid nitrogen) is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for small reptiles (<40 grams). Larger animals may feel pain with this method, so it is not suggested for larger reptiles.

The one author states that freezing in a conventional freezer is an unacceptable method due to the potential for painful formation of ice crystals in the muscle tissue.

I agree that freezing a larger animal would be inhumane due to the fact that the body would take so long to freeze, the animal would most likely experience a long and uncomfortable death. For a smaller animal, I really wonder if the nerves are still capable of firing by the time ice crystals are forming.

I do agree strongly that it is better to cull deformed babies rather than attempting to nurse them through life. Even if they are capable of living a perfectly normal life (such as one-eyed or no-eyed snakes), selling it as a "pet" may be a great way to perpetuate the trait if the animal later falls into the hands of unscrupulous breeders. The only way to ensure that the trait isn't passed on is to keep it or cull it. Even the best-intentioned pet owner may have a change of life plans, especially with an animal that lives 20+ years, and you never know who might end up with it.

[wilomn]

I have no idea whether anesthesia is used for lethal injection in human beings.

I can tell you than in animal euthanasia, the animal is put under general anesthesia prior to intracardiac injection. If someone was sticking a giant needle directly into your heart, you wouldn't want to be conscious for it, either.

Mader et. al. states that RAPID freezing (being dipped in liquid nitrogen) is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for small reptiles (<40 grams). Larger animals may feel pain with this method, so it is not suggested for larger reptiles.

The one author states that freezing in a conventional freezer is an unacceptable method due to the potential for painful formation of ice crystals in the muscle tissue.

I agree that freezing a larger animal would be inhumane due to the fact that the body would take so long to freeze, the animal would most likely experience a long and uncomfortable death. For a smaller animal, I really wonder if the nerves are still capable of firing by the time ice crystals are forming.

I do agree strongly that it is better to cull deformed babies rather than attempting to nurse them through life. Even if they are capable of living a perfectly normal life (such as one-eyed or no-eyed snakes), selling it as a "pet" may be a great way to perpetuate the trait if the animal later falls into the hands of unscrupulous breeders. The only way to ensure that the trait isn't passed on is to keep it or cull it. Even the best-intentioned pet owner may have a change of life plans, especially with an animal that lives 20+ years, and you never know who might end up with it.

So far, I believe, this is the first mention of intracardial injection.

As such, either a further clarification by previous experts, er rumor mongers, is necessary, or this thread is just going to spiral on and on, with no one actually knowing what anyone else is talking about.

I have assumed that we have been discussing injection of lethal drugs into a vein or artery, not directly into the heart. For that I am unaware of any anesthesia prior to injecting in reptiles. I am not considering anything but reptiles in this thread.

[Chocolate1]

You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

I would be happy to clarify. In lay terms, analgesic drugs prevent pain responses from reaching the brain. That is why you don't feel pain during surgery, or if you take a mild analgesic, it decreases your pain. When a vet euthanizes an animal, they can give them an OVERDOSE of an analgesic. Or, they give them an analgesic prior to another drug that causes death. The same types of drugs used to euthanize animals via overdose are used in lesser doses to treat pain, or do surgery. Freezing, decapitating, and pithing are all acceptable methods of euthanasia ONLY IF an analgesic (or anesthetic) is given before hand because these all cause pain. The animal should be at a surgical plane of anesthesia for any of these methods. Many reptile veterinarians use a pentobarbital drug that the inject directly in the heart for euthanasia. However, before they do it, they usually use an gas anesthetic, like isoflurane, or another sedative to render the animal unconcious. The usually use an intracardiac injection because reptile veins are relatively difficult to hit as contrasted with mammals. There are many variations on this theme though, and each veterinarian will have their preference. However, there are always first be analgesia or anesthesia, and then if first isn’t an overdose that results in death, and if the animal is at a surgical plane of anesthesia, then they must perform a second step. This can be freezing, pithing, decapitating, pentobarbital intracardiacally, etc, again, as long as the animal is unconcious. And, just to be clear, cooling an animal in a refridgerator does not quailfy as sufficient anesthetic to then freeze them. A cooled down animal can still feel pain.