Put it down already

[Aleria]

I still haven't seen exactly what is considered "proper" euthanasia for snakes. I believe I saw mention of a new medication based euthanasia, but if that's the case and it's new, I'd assume that means it's not the same thing they use on dogs or cats, which would lead me to believe that you're most likely only going to find that option at a herp specific vet.

[Eventide]

Apology accepted but there is still no excuse for your condemnation of those who DARE to think and do other than as you approve.

What, exactly, makes you better?

Condemnation? You think I'm condemning people? You think I'm arguing because I think I'm somehow above y'all? Seriously?

I'm arguing for the health and well-being of these wonderful creatures called reptiles. I'm trying to get people to think logically and critically. I'm trying to get people to stop thinking about only what's best for themselves.

I guess if that makes me look like I think I'm better than others, then so be it.

[MarkS]

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

There are probably more people who do this then is realized. I've been told in confidence by people who do this, and no I'm not going to 'prove it' because I don't go around betraying confidences. It's not something I would personally do, but I also don't believe that I have a right to make demands on how other people handle their animals. As long as it's a 'humane' euthanasia, whatever their reasons for doing so, are THEIR reasons.

[wolfy-hound]

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS. The animal takes forever to actually die. I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful. If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction. Brutal? Yes. But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache. (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad). Reptiles don't show us much.

And as far as the "I heard.." unless the person told you "I do XXX" please discount it as typical rumor-mongering.

Every person who breeds snakes has to make their own decisions. Unless you personally have had a deformed baby hatch, then you'll have a very hard time saying what you yourself will or will not do. I used to say "I'd give it every chance", but when you look at a deformed baby who obviously will never be 'right', you have to make the decision right then about what you see in front of you, not as a theory.

[Aleria]

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS. The animal takes forever to actually die. I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful. If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction. Brutal? Yes. But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache. (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad). Reptiles don't show us much.

Now this I can understand. Considering it takes reptiles much longer to metabolize things than humans or other mammals then it would make sense that just injecting them with some drug to euthanize them could result in a very slow death, or not even complete death at all due to it taking so long for it to metabolize in their bloodstream.

I think too many people are thinking about how freezing affects humans or other warm blooded animals rather than how it would actually affect a cold blooded creature. Yes it takes humans quite a while to freeze to death and is very painful, but we also have a body that tries to fight the cold and keep us warm, reptiles don't. The extreme cold will kill them far faster than it would us, so I would tend to believe their systems would shut down long before they start suffering in pain.

I also agree that thinking a snake can't have a headache because it's not as smart as a human is kind of... well... stupid. Pain is pain no matter what type of living creature is feeling it, and a headache is a physical reaction, not an emotional one, so intelligence of the creature really would have no bearing on the matter. (thus not anthropomorphizing it)

[wilomn]

It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Upon what, specifically, is this statement based?

[jglass38]

I wanted to quickly address the medical euthanasia aspect. Yes it exists. I had a Brazilian Rainbow Boa that I rescued and over a few years it never did get better. Turns out it had been starved for a long time and kept without water. It was tested for everything possible, all negative. In the end, the conclusion was that it suffered from irreversible kidney damage from the neglect. Whether this is true or not, it just wasn't getting better. I took it to the vet and had it medically euthanized. I was there when it was given the injection and held it until it died in less than 2 minutes. The vet checked for a heartbeat to insure it wasn't still alive. So yes, it is possible.

[Chocolate1]

Originally Posted by Eventide


It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Upon what, specifically, is this statement based?

It may not be against the law for a veterinarian to perform a reptile euthanasia via freezing, however, since the American Veterinary Medical Association has determined that it is inhumane to do so, there could be consequences for a veterinarian doing so. If they were reported, they may be called before a board and reprimanded. Repeat violations could jeopardize their license.

[Chocolate1]

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS. The animal takes forever to actually die. I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful. If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction. Brutal? Yes. But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache. (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad). Reptiles don't show us much.

And as far as the "I heard.." unless the person told you "I do XXX" please discount it as typical rumor-mongering.

Every person who breeds snakes has to make their own decisions. Unless you personally have had a deformed baby hatch, then you'll have a very hard time saying what you yourself will or will not do. I used to say "I'd give it every chance", but when you look at a deformed baby who obviously will never be 'right', you have to make the decision right then about what you see in front of you, not as a theory.

I think we should keep in mind that it is not just the TIME it takes for a reptile to die, but the sensory experience as well. While a euthanasia performed by a veterinarian may take longer, the drugs used do not create pain in the animal; indeed, the do the opposite, they are powerful analgesics. So, if a veterinarian gives a lethal injection of a drug with the intent of euthanasia, analgesia will take place before death. This means that the animal will not experience pain, but will slowly lose consciousness, followed by the cessation of heart function and brain function. The route of the injection will determine how long this process takes. If it is directly in the blood stream it is quicker than if it is in the body cavity or liver, for example.

Freezing may be quicker in some cases, but there is no analgesia involved. The types of tissues most affected by cooler temperature are the cells involved in muscle function, not nervous function. So while the reptile may not be able to move, there is still neurological function, and having your tissues freeze is certainly painful. Even at very low temperatures reptile species retain consciousness. Indeed, there have been many scientific studies conducted on pain and function at low temperatures.

Again, I emphasize that there have been scientific studies conducted on reptile pain. And yes, “we” do know things about what reptiles feel and whether it is painful. Many people do research on this kind of stuff for a living.

[Eventide]

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994: http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21): http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University: http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley: http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc