inbred

[Tikall]

It's not a mystery what inbreeding does, and I am rather tired of people on this forum pretending that balls are impervious to it. To assume that there will not be undesired results after a few generations of inbreeding is naive because that would assume your animals are not holding at least one potentially harmful gene. If we are at about generation 5 now, where will we be in a decade or two or three now that we are kicking the combos into gear? Will people not be breeding or keeping balls then? If you think people will be breeding them then, why this attitude of "Why do today what we could put off till tomorrow?" If we want to wait till we see visible debilitating (since harmless deformities like 6 supralabial pits on each side has been deemed okay with everyone) deformities that can ruin an entire line then I guess that's okay? Or is it taking advantage of the animals?

[Turbo Serpent]

How do you think most of our dog breeds came to be?

They were line bred for certain traits... coat thickness, temperament, size, color, tracking skills, etc

People have been breeding dogs for traits for well over 100 years and I KNOW that line breeding and in breeding does occur. I don't see many if any deformities in dogs. Nobody inbreeds or line breeds more than a few generations because of the fact that undesired results (deformities) are possibilities.

Unless a genetic defect is already present line breeding will always be the safer route of "inbreeding" because the genes are only half the same.

[Tikall]

James, are you being serious or trolling? I know dogs have been extensively line and inbred, but to say you don't see deformities is boggling. The guidelines for English bulldogs recently had to be changed from HUGE head to LARGE head because of all the health problems they suffer from (and breeders were enraged for changing the standards to allow for healthier animals, oh no!). They can't even breed naturally and need to be artificially inseminated. Many purebred dogs suffer from a laundry list of health issues, and guess what it's from? The English bulldog is just one breed, but look at dobermans, German shepherds, and many more. Certain breeds are very well known for their own health issues.

With snakes we are not trying to change their shape or anything too drastic, and for most of the genes it is clear how they are inherited and close inbreeding is so easily avoided, yet you don't want to?

I'm not saying anything even close to "we should stop breeding for morphs," but I do think we should start breeding for healthier snakes. By the time a deformity becomes tied to a line and many people already have the snakes, do you think everyone will suddenly drop their projects? I highly doubt it. I realize wobbling is tied to the spider gene and kinking is tied to the caramel gene (and at this point I doubt either are from inbreeding), but what if inbreeding led to no eyes in some hatchlings of a ghost line, and none of the smaller breeders knew until they started hatching out their own eyeless ghosts? Again, would everyone drop all of their projects with this line or would we just have more freezer babies every year? How about we just avoid it with smart breeding plans in the first place?

[Turbo Serpent]

I'm not saying by any means to hide or continually breed if defects are present. I am merely stating that as for most of the BP community line breeding and inbreeding doesnt go farther than one to two generations, we do it because if we were to breed two visual recessives together in order to get that visual we would then need to breed brother and sister back.

There are not many people out there that will trade animals of like genetics for outcrossing because most are fearful that they will receive unhealthy animals in trade so they use animals they produced and know to be healthy.

I know what you mean about the brachiocephalic dogs and all of their issues, and personally I would never own an animal like that anyway, but more and more of the purebreeds are getting better, because they are being outcrossed. More people are studding out animals to cut down on inbreeding.

I have no animals in my collection that are related in blood, so I am merely playing Devils Advocate here, but I see no issue with "inbreeding" if done responsibly. And by responsibly I mean for the health of the animals, once something is noticed you have already crossed the line.

[Tikall]

I agree with a good 2/3 of that. I simply think inbreeding should be made a bigger issue than "Oh it's fine in ball pythons, even though we've seen terrible consequences it in mammals, fish, other reptiles, and more." One or two generations probably won't do anything terrible, but what also needs to be watched for is people selling 1.1 pairs from the same clutch because who knows how far the inbreeding goes back? And what if the next person wants to sell a 1.1 pair of the hatchlings they produced from the inbred 1.1 they originally bought? The snakes change hands and I think few people ask for proof of heritage. I just think it should be a bigger deal, and people should be encouraged to ask these sorts of questions if buying a 1.1 pair from a breeder.

I am not sure what you mean about needing to closely inbreed to get a double recessive, as I stated how you would get around it in the previous page. It's potentially more expensive if you start from scratch, but it's not like you wouldn't make your money back with strong lines and double recessives to sell. You have to keep in mind people might be more willing to pay more for outcrossed snakes if you include it in the advertisement. It makes your snakes stand out from the other ads.

And people buy and sell snakes all the time. If people started paying more attention to the other genes in their snakes I don't see why many would be unwilling to sell some of their hets and buy hets from other reputable breeders to cross with their holdback hets.

[americangypsy]

James, are you being serious or trolling? I know dogs have been extensively line and inbred, but to say you don't see deformities is boggling. The guidelines for English bulldogs recently had to be changed from HUGE head to LARGE head because of all the health problems they suffer from (and breeders were enraged for changing the standards to allow for healthier animals, oh no!). They can't even breed naturally and need to be artificially inseminated. Many purebred dogs suffer from a laundry list of health issues, and guess what it's from? The English bulldog is just one breed, but look at dobermans, German shepherds, and many more. Certain breeds are very well known for their own health issues.

With snakes we are not trying to change their shape or anything too drastic, and for most of the genes it is clear how they are inherited and close inbreeding is so easily avoided, yet you don't want to?

I'm not saying anything even close to "we should stop breeding for morphs," but I do think we should start breeding for healthier snakes. By the time a deformity becomes tied to a line and many people already have the snakes, do you think everyone will suddenly drop their projects? I highly doubt it. I realize wobbling is tied to the spider gene and kinking is tied to the caramel gene (and at this point I doubt either are from inbreeding), but what if inbreeding led to no eyes in some hatchlings of a ghost line, and none of the smaller breeders knew until they started hatching out their own eyeless ghosts? Again, would everyone drop all of their projects with this line or would we just have more freezer babies every year? How about we just avoid it with smart breeding plans in the first place?

I totally agree with you .

[eclipsesmommy]

thanks everyone for the input (:
personally i dont believe in inbreeding or line breeding in any animal including humans, snakes, dogs. no extensive research has been done for snakes in particular simply because no one cares. but if anybody should care it should be people who have an account on a ball python forum because obviously they care enough to help everyone out and post pics of their snakes that theyre oh so proud of. sure its wonderful to have beautiful ball pythons with rare markings and glorious color but quality of life is key. who knows? line breeding could cause blurry vision, impaired scent, even digestive problems. things that breeders wouldnt really notice because most people SEEM to think that as long as the snake is hiding, eating, and shedding everything is okay but theres much more to a snakes life than that. shoooot i feel terrible everytime my ball jerks his head back in fear and freak out trying to make him comfortable and calm and flinching is common. i couldnt imagine what would happen if he didnt eat or had a bad shed ): i suggest that if anyone is line breeding they switch it up a little bit for the sake of all snakes and your customers. im pretty sure many would be willing to do trades or you could bump up prices a wee bit to cover the cost of a brand new unrelated snake. in the long run, i think it would be beneficial to everyone.