Already breeding, but not enough...

[chromeitout]

I have breeding rats for about a year now, but now that my bp collection has grown in size and numbers I am going to have to expand. I produce WAY more mice than I can use so that project is good, but I need some opinions on what and how many racks/breeders you guys think I should build to give me what I need (I plan to build something tomorrow).

Right now I have 14 bp's. 3 are taking large rats, 3 are taking smalls, and 8 are taking mediums. More production than I need is better than less.

I only have one rack for rats so far. It is a 7 high concrete tub rack. It has 1.2 or 1.3 in 4 tubs, 1 weaner tub, 1 holdback tub and 1 empty.

I have watched all of the RDR youtube vids., and love the way he is set up. My thinking is bringing me to believe that I should use my current rack for weans and rest for moms, and I should build a 12 tub jumbo litter pan breeder rack w/ 1.5 each. Does this sound right? Also, how many birthing tubs would you recommend for this number if you agree? would a 24 tubber like my mice racks be enough or not? Any help woud be appreciated as I would like to build at least 1 rack tomorrow.

[TankMasterOG]

sounds like you got the right idea....love the racks is ther a DIY some where or did you just watch Rdr vids till you got it right?

[suzuki4life]

I have breeding rats for about a year now, but now that my bp collection has grown in size and numbers I am going to have to expand. I produce WAY more mice than I can use so that project is good, but I need some opinions on what and how many racks/breeders you guys think I should build to give me what I need (I plan to build something tomorrow).

Right now I have 14 bp's. 3 are taking large rats, 3 are taking smalls, and 8 are taking mediums. More production than I need is better than less.

I only have one rack for rats so far. It is a 7 high concrete tub rack. It has 1.2 or 1.3 in 4 tubs, 1 weaner tub, 1 holdback tub and 1 empty.

I have watched all of the RDR youtube vids., and love the way he is set up. My thinking is bringing me to believe that I should use my current rack for weans and rest for moms, and I should build a 12 tub jumbo litter pan breeder rack w/ 1.5 each. Does this sound right? Also, how many birthing tubs would you recommend for this number if you agree? would a 24 tubber like my mice racks be enough or not? Any help woud be appreciated as I would like to build at least 1 rack tomorrow.

to increase would require more info

but with the info provided, I would suggest switching as many of your mice eating snakes over to rat pups if you can...

down sizing your mouse breeding and increasing your rat breeding.

I would increase the colony sizes in the concrete mixing tubs and personally...in any situation where large rats are needed...I would do away with the birthing rack...
Turn your birthing rack into a grow out rack...

purpose of a birthing rack is to allow mothers time to rest...in a production set up resting is bad. The more they produce continuosly, the quicker they will grow and the fatter they will get at a younger age...(these are your larges you will eventually be feeding)


Does each snake only eat one rat at the given size? How often do you feed them? how many mice do you have in a colony?

[chromeitout]

There is not a DIY for these mouse racks specifically, I just looked at a bunch of them and built what I thought was best for me. Although, I did use a DIY (can't find link right now) to build the rat rack a couple years back (was used for a mouse rack then).

Does each snake only eat one rat at the given size? How often do you feed them? how many mice do you have in a colony?

Yes, they only eat 1 rat each per week. It is possible that I could feed more to them, but I haven't fully got the hang of how much and how often is too much and too often for bp's yet. Most of my collection are corn snakes, thus the need to produce alot of mouse pinks-hoppers. I guess I could try changing all of my adults over to rats, but I have to get them going first. As far as the mice, I have between 1.3 and 1.8 per tub in one whole rack (1.8's are for freezing pinks for the hatchlings). The other rack is nothing but weaners and grow outs (+/- 25 per tub). Also, I'm the sole supplier of a local pet store for their mice (and will be rats as well when I get them going), so I can't really drop any production on the mice. I just need to build whatever I need to expand the rats.

Also, a little more info (in case it matters)... All of the bps eat live or pk (not f/t), so I need to have enough of the "right size" live each week to feed them.

[m00kfu]

wrong name...

[littleindiangirl]

RDR has his set up with the breeders in the litter pans, and the mothers raising in small pans. The only thing I have against his set up, is he is using mouse breeding tubs as female nursing racks, and these are incredibly short and cramped.

I would use the concrete as breeding, and the litter pans as nursing. It's how we do it and it works out well, without leaving the female and her young hardly able to turn around.

RDR has a lot of videos on how he does it. He puts girls in to breed, then he pulls them into the nursing tubs, and when they wean he puts them back in to breed.

I must point out, there is no evidence to support that a female bred back to back (i.e., not removed from males, litter every 3-4 weeks) will grow larger on a linear scale with the increase in her litters. Female rats will grow based on genetics, I can't say in all of my readings that I have ever come across his idea or anything to support it.

I like the RDR method far better than allowing females to have a litter every 3-4 weeks. Some people do it this way though, which I believe is what Suzuki is referring to. (I think, I'm unsure of what he does). I personally disagree with that method,... call it the animal lover in me.

[chromeitout]

I agree that the mice trays are a bit narrow for nursing (9 1/2 x 21 1/2 x 3 1/2). The tubs that I use in my mice racks are 15 1/2 x 18 1/2 x 4. Do you think this will be appropriate? They are the same footprint as the Van Ness tubs, (and both will fit my current racks) but not as deep. I can get these locally for $3 each and have no idea where to get the van ness ones without paying shipping.

I guess you're right about the concrete tubs being the way to go. I only have 1.3 in my concrete tubs, but I feel 1.5 would still be fine, however 1.5 in a jumbo litter pan would be a little cramped.

Ok, so lets assume the litter pans I'm currently using are sufficient for birthing/nursing single moms, and the concrete ones are what I will use for breeding, weaning and holding extra moms. It works out well to have the litter pan racks 8 high x 3 wide (24 tubs), which will be room for 24 moms to give birth and nurse up to weaning. The concrete tubs 1 wide x 7 tall (7 tubs) will give me 7 male and 35 female breeders. Then 1 more concrete rack would give me 7 tubs to use for weaners, hold backs, and extra moms. Does this seem like it will produce over enough to fill my needs? Is this what you would do or should I have more or less of something?

[littleindiangirl]

That sounds like you will have more rats than you need LOL. You'll do very well like that. Yes, and those pan sizes sound great too. Although, it sounds like you are going for 48 females total, or 24 females total? If 24, you wont need 24 nursing tubs, since you probably wont have every female popping at the same time. :p

But yea, I think you'll be fine with that set up.

[suzuki4life]

Women/females normally get bigger after giving birth...add to the fact the limited available activity given in this situation, and them getting bigger/fatter is inevitable.

IBuild more of the concrete tub racks....

use some space for grow out racks...

optimum production would be to cycle your breeders out at 8-12 months old as larges, some of the grow outs ate 3-4 months as mediums and the rest as needed.

I don't understand the logic of trying to be "humane" to these animals since you are doing nothing that doesn't come naturally (they naturally will breed back to back in a wild colony situation, hence the expression "breeding like rats.") and unless you are starving them or making them live captive in their own refuse...you are being humane. Ultimately they animals will be killed one way or another to feed another. I can't figure any form of dying is fun or happy.

back on topic.....

1.4 is ideal in the concrete tub...you can swing 1.5 but fighting sometimes occurs from crowding....

at 1.4 or bigger, keep a close eye on weaning....you will be producing a high rate of animals per tub, so older rats will bully out younger ones for milk. So once their eyes are open, move them to allow new pinks to be able to feed.


pinky mice....I run 1.8 in the litter pan racks. no issues if they have constant access to food and water. Mice will kill their young quickly if they feel they can not support them.

I supply pet shops, individuals and myself...when you become a supplier....you worry more about production, sizes, and quality than you do pet life qualities....

they need to be fed, watered, not bullied and not live in soiled conditions that will cause them harm.


also if you supply someone....any escapees are contaminated...

if you want to feed them to your own private stuff...fine....but they never re-enter a colony nor do they go to your customers. Great way to bring in poisons, mites/fleas etc...

[chromeitout]

Thanks for the replies from the two of you. You both seem to recommend very different methods, and RDR's is also totally different from either of those (I know that there are many ways to skin a cat, or breed a rat)

Suzuki, I believe that you are stating that you keep 1.4 per concrete tub and never move male or females, even for birthing/nursing, correct? This is basically what I've been doing for a year and for some reason I do not get a good production rate... eaten babies, females that just never get pregnant, etc.

And Littleindiangirl, I read your posts in the sticky and am somewhat confused about your method as well. You talk about the cycle of moving males from one female to the next every two weeks, but you also state that you use concrete tubs with 1.3 I believe. Could you clarify a bit for me? If you move a male on a cycle of 2 weeks through 0.3 tubs, are you letting the females all give birth in the same concrete tub? But if you do only have 1 female per tub like the graph shows what happens if one of the females doesn't get pregnant in the two weeks allowed... you just don't have the litter that week that you are counting on?

I will have to say that I like things about all three systems, and I can also see potential problems with each. (The following statements are made assuming that I understand how your systems work). I think that Suzuki's is the simplest with less moving and sorting and not as many different kinds of racks, and also is not feeding females and taking up space during weeks of rest, however this is basically what I've been doing with poor results for some reason. RDR's seems that he would produce the most amount of pregnant rats per week because the moms stay in the breeding bins until they are pregnant and then moved into a safe (however small) bin to give birth and nurse, but with this system there is no way to keep track of how old each female is or if she ever does get pregnant at all. Littleindian girl, I like yours because if one female is kept per bin it would be very easy to keep track of who's producing and how old they are, but it seems that this would take up alot of space and if a female missed getting pregnant or had a low number in her litter your numbers would be greatly affected that week.

Ok, so I over analyze everything I do, but it usually pays off for me. If I have incorrectly assumed anything about either of your setups I apologize and ask you to please correct me. Thanks again.