Input on multiple snakes in one tank.

[mumps]

Snakes can be kept more than one per enclosure. It just takes time, forethought, preparation and knowledge of the species chosen.

I wouldn't put a ball with a king cobra, however .

I see a lot of references to "breeders do it this way". Breeders use one snake per tub because it helps them accurately keep records on all of their snakes. Also, the tubs they use aren't big enough for more than one snake to cram into...

Chris

[Egapal]

Thanks, I came here to get help since I'm obviously not an expert and wanted advice from pros. I need to go buy some UTH soon to put the small snakes in the 10 gal tanks.

I did not mean that as an attack on you. My point was that this happens on the forum all the time.

Step 1.
Someone asks about or posts something showing more than one snake in the same enclosure.

Step 2.
Someone says "you shouldn't keep more than one snake in an enclosure"

Step 3.
People start going on and on and on about how its perfectly ok to keep more than one snake in an enclosure and how everyone who says otherwise is just regurgitating nonsense.

Step 4.
The OP tells us a little more and we find out that they really shouldn't be keeping more than one snake in an enclosure for some good reason or another.

The point is that if you are keeping two or more snakes together and everything is fine then that's great. But the second you have a problem such as not feeding, surprise eggs that are really not a surprise, two sick snakes or some other issue that could have been prevented by keeping them in separate enclosures and you ask about it in a forum post, you are are going to be told to split them up as step one.

Again midtx350z I am not attacking you. It just really seams like you should split them up when you get a chance. On a lighter note. The snakes all look great and glad you didn't die from a baby carrot. Hate to have "Lived a full life only to be cut down by a baby carrot" on your tomb stone.

[wilomn]

I'm wondering about this "eggs before she's ready thing" I keep seeing.

Has it occurred to ANY of you that if a female ovulates, even if it's only one or two eggs, that SHE is obviously ready and able to do so or she WOULDN'T produce follicles to begin with.

MAYBE some of you, unbeknownst to your own selves, are simply greedy. If she only lays one or two eggs, the she surely must not be ready to breed because if we wait another year or two she'll lay, what, 4 or 5 or 6 eggs? What's an average clutch? 5?

So, if a girl can successfully lay 2 eggs, and it doesn't affect her detrimentally, what's the problem? She's young? Well, she produced the follicles so obviously she's old enough.

She will lay MORE eggs if you wait longer. Hmmmmm, she's ready now, but will only lay a couple of eggs. Not much chance of profit or playing the odds there. BUT, if you wait, she'll lay a larger clutch will will not only enhance your chances of getting the combo you want, but will......heh, will what? Other than increasing your odds on a combo or profit by laying more eggs, what is the benefit to the female to wait?

But, I suppose as long as all those experts out there, having produced one or two or no clutches at all, know far better than the snakes themselves what is healthy for them.

I'm not advocating the breeding of small or young females but I am saying that all this crap about how dangerous it is to have a small female "lay an unexpected clutch" is just that, crap. If she's able then she's ready or she is not suitable for further contributions to the gene pool in which case nature will weed her out and solve the problem.

How many 4000g females do you suppose there are in the wild that breed? How many in the 1200g range? I bet there are WAY more small females breeding in the wild than large. I don't reckon there are a whole lot of 9, 10, 12 egg clutches from wild females but can easily imagine a bunch of 3 and 4 egg batches.

I just don't see that particular argument as valid.

[HerpKeeperVA]

I haven't read this entire thread, just stating my opinion. That tank is too small for four snakes, especially ones that size. And even if you haven't had issues in the past, it's always best to house everyone separately. I've seen a lot of people use the argument "well they cuddle in the hide together, so they must be friends!" That is not the case. They're only in there together because that's the ideal place to be, the extra bodies are just in the way.

All of my snakes are housed separately in terrariums until I get a rack system built. I wanted to start mine at the beginning of this month but was delayed. I'm anxious to get the ball rolling because five terrariums take up a LOT of space!

[SatanicIntention]

So if a 10 year old girl gets pregnant and has a baby successfully, then that's okay too?

Sure, as long as a 6 month old dog goes into heat and gets pregnant first go around, that's ok... 6 month old cat, sure...

When animals get gravid/pregnant what have you, too early, it's detrimental to their growth and can stunt them. I've had it happen in rats and have seen it happen alot when breeders breed them at 3-4 months old when the animal isn't even done growing.

[midtx350z]

On a lighter note. The snakes all look great and glad you didn't die from a baby carrot. Hate to have "Lived a full life only to be cut down by a baby carrot" on your tomb stone.

Thanks, nah I didn't take it as a personal attack I just wanted to make my point clear. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

[midtx350z]

Ok, I think we've fixed the problem for now. I'll post pics when I get home.

[mrshawt]

Can't wait to find out what you did.

[midtx350z]

Well this is gonna have to work for now. The two boys are in the bottom one, and the small girl is in the top one. Cleo is in the big one.

We still need to work on the large display to split up all of them. Cleo seems a bit happier now. She's been calming down little by little. The other three are chill as always, they all ate rats yesterday, they're digesting them right now.

[WingedWolfPsion]

So if a 10 year old girl gets pregnant and has a baby successfully, then that's okay too?

Sure, as long as a 6 month old dog goes into heat and gets pregnant first go around, that's ok... 6 month old cat, sure...

When animals get gravid/pregnant what have you, too early, it's detrimental to their growth and can stunt them. I've had it happen in rats and have seen it happen alot when breeders breed them at 3-4 months old when the animal isn't even done growing.

I actually have a theory about this in ball pythons, and I plan to test it. I'll compare the growth rates and clutch sizes of females first bred at 2000 grams, 1500 grams, and 1200 grams. I'll also compare females over 1000 grams bred at age 1 (harder to find), age 2, age 3, and age 4.

Yes, it's not going to be this year, but probably in more like 4 or 5 years. If no one else does it in the meantime, I'll do it.

The premise of the theory will be, ball pythons, like some other animals, have their growth and future productivity negatively effected by being bred when they are too small, though actual age does not matter.

The above testing should show some evidence for or against the idea. I will have to use a fairly large number of animals, and record averages, as obviously genetics and other factors can be involved.

If I turn out to be wrong, that will be significant too, and may change the way breeders manage their snakes. If I wind up with evidence supporting the theory, it will be a confirmation of what most breeders are assuming.

In the meantime, to play it safe, I first breed my female snakes at 1500 grams, and not a gram less.