ASF Tell ALLS... Finally decided to reveal to my BP.net brothers and sisters....

[kc261]

Most hog feeds I looked at have extreme overdoses of copper in them--hogs are highly resistant to copper, so it's added to their feed to improve their growth rates. The amount of copper in hog feed is high enough to just kill off sheep that get into it and eat it, for example.

While the rodents may be able to withstand these high copper levels, I am concerned for the health of any carnivore that eats those rodents. Were you able to find hog feeds that did not contain excessive copper supplements?

I did research how well mice can tolerate copper before I fed hog food to my mice, and I was able to find info from scientific studies that indicated mice can tolerate a lot of copper. Admittedly I'm not 100% certain how it affects the snakes, but I'm not the only person who has fed my rodent colony with hog food, and so far no one is reporting problems.

I assume that since it is safe for people to eat these hogs that have been fed on these high copper hog feeds, that the amount of copper that stays in the animal is not nearly as high as in the food they feed them. So the same is probably true for rodents.

Perhaps the issue with sheep has more to do with them being super sensitive to copper? I know copper is used in certain medicines for aquarium fish, but you can't use it if you have certain species of fish because it is toxic to those species, but just fine for most fish.

[littleindiangirl]

The hog feed Mike feeds is ONLY available in the south eastern U.S.

Most hog feeds do contain high supplemental copper, but there are formulas out there that don't.

I would not feed rats something that can be fed to any ruminants like cattle, they require HIGH fiber and roughage being herbivores, that is not something a pig or rat would thrive on.

[jsmorphs2]

When I was looking for hog feed I noticed their were different formulas for different stages. I will try to do some research on them and compare ingredients/nutritional value to mazuri and country acres and try to find one that matches and is available around here.

Those of you feeding your ASFs hog feed... have you been feeding them to your BPs for long and have you had any issues with BP clutches that might be associated with copper problems?

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I still feed the hog feed exclusively. I also feed my entire snake collections ASF's exclusively. I have had 4 perfect clutches laid this year.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Mike, how long have you been feeding the ASFs on hog feed? (Curious how long the snakes have been eating the ASFs on it).

[jeffh231979]

Wow mike great write up!!! Just curious were you get the pine i pay almost 7.00 for a 4 cubic feet at wal-mart??

[WingedWolfPsion]

I assume that since it is safe for people to eat these hogs that have been fed on these high copper hog feeds, that the amount of copper that stays in the animal is not nearly as high as in the food they feed them. So the same is probably true for rodents.

See, I personally need a lot more evidence before I would risk my snakes with something like this--I want real long-term trials, not just a few months or a year on it, too. It's safe for people to eat pork raised that way, but people do not eat pork exclusively--they eat many other things as well, so that doesn't necessarily mean the levels of copper in the pork aren't excessively high for humans. If you eat a lot of pork liver, you may find copper toxicity is an actual risk. Our snakes will be eating the innards along with the rest of the animal, including the organs that concentrate copper.

While most non-ruminant animals appear to tolerate copper very well, there are some species that don't--including some breeds of dogs, and as was mentioned, some fish. Since copper toxicity harms the liver and kidneys, it's definitely something that would need to be studied for a long time, with each species individually, and very thoroughly, to be safe.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

See, I personally need a lot more evidence before I would risk my snakes with something like this--I want real long-term trials, not just a few months or a year on it, too. It's safe for people to eat pork raised that way, but people do not eat pork exclusively--they eat many other things as well, so that doesn't necessarily mean the levels of copper in the pork aren't excessively high for humans. If you eat a lot of pork liver, you may find copper toxicity is an actual risk. Our snakes will be eating the innards along with the rest of the animal, including the organs that concentrate copper.

While most non-ruminant animals appear to tolerate copper very well, there are some species that don't--including some breeds of dogs, and as was mentioned, some fish. Since copper toxicity harms the liver and kidneys, it's definitely something that would need to be studied for a long time, with each species individually, and very thoroughly, to be safe.

LOL, I think 95% of snakes in captivity today are proof that you are worried about nothing.

Why do I say this? It is easy. The hog feed I am using has Copper 16 - 19 ppm.

Mazuri 6F, what the great majority of Rodent breeders feed has Copper 22 ppm. https://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M30.pdf

So yeah, if your worries are true, you better switch to the hog feed right away!

[littleindiangirl]

I think it's good to be interested in whatever diet you choose to feed. A good quality diet is key, and just going out to buy whatever is on sale without doing research is likely a poor choice.

It sounds like Mike's feed choice was a good one, and has copper levels lower than a popular rat feed.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Mike, that's fantastic news--thank you for that information, I had no idea copper levels in rodent block were so high. Looks like I'll be switching to hog feed as well, in that case--the composition is pretty similar, and it's a heck of a lot cheaper.