Do all morphs have diffrent personalities?

[Spaniard]

thanks guys i was just wonderiing beause i know that these "orphs" are all genetic defects like the super cinny with kinks and the spiders head wobble so i was wondering if any others have other defects which is what i meant by personalities

Caramels are known for kinks not Cinnies.

[th3jok3r]

oo yea thats right and supper cinniy's have something wrong with their heads or something i dont remeber

[kc261]

Spiders were healthy enough to survive in the wild in order to be imported here for the pet trade.

Were they? I believe only one wild spider has ever been found, and all of our captive spiders are descended from that one animal. I have no idea if he was an adult, or maybe even a CH, which would mean he never was in the wild at all. I suspect the wobbling issues may be related to why another wild spider has never been found. If he was CH, or if he was young when captured, maybe he is the original mutant, and just never got a chance to breed. Or maybe he is the original mutant, was able to survive ok, but his wobbling preventing him from breeding in the wild. Who knows? But even if spiders may not be able to survive and reproduce in the wild, that doesn't mean that most of them aren't plenty healthy enough to be just fine in captivity. Albinos don't do too well in the wild either, but just because they are an easy target for a predator doesn't have any negative affect on them in captivity at all.

Adding the spider gene to a combo morph seems to strengthen it and reduces the frequency of wobbles appearing in combos vs. the spider gene on its own.

I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

Is it right to keep on breeding animals with defects, just because they are beautiful? And I'm not thinking mainly about spiders, but also other animals who suffers from humans aggressive ways of breeding beyond all common sense when it comes to their pets appearances. The English Bulldog and similar breeds are just a few of the examples where selective breeding has gone way too far and animals are suffering badly.

I think there is a BIG difference between selecting for something like a deformed nose that interferes with the dog's ability to breathe, and selecting for a color pattern.

Also, you reported that one of your enigma leo babies does not circle. If selective breeding can keep the pretty color pattern, but reduce or eliminate the circling problem, do you still have a problem with breeding enigmas? (I don't actually know anything about enigmas, so I don't know how likely this is, but just asking if...)

I've not been aware of BP morphs for long enough to be sure, but it seems to be that there are fewer problems with caramels kinking than there used to be. Maybe all the outcrossing that has been done as people produce hets and combos has helped. Also, some people are trying to find ways to avoid it, for example I remember reading about someone (Tim Bailey maybe?) who was keeping track of some stuff regarding humidity during incubation because there may be a correlation.

So I think there is lots of possibilities to reduce or eliminate some of the problems that are seen with some of the reptile morphs. Reptile breeding is still in its infancy compared to something like dog breeding. I actually think the reptile world is doing WONDERFULLY by selecting for colors. Compare it to such things as the already mentioned dog breeds, or long fins on fish which make it hard for them to swim, or quarter horses with tiny feet which often caused lameness issues, and you'll probably agree we could be doing a lot worse.

[tom s4wy3r]

this has nothing to do with spider wobbles but i do know that the camel albino morph has common kinking.or maybe it was just carmels? either way carmel morphs are known for kinking

[Spaniard]

I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

This is a statement I've heard many times over the last couple years; is it rumor? I guess it could be.

We see many posts about people and their spiders exhibiting some sort of wobble? Where are all the bumble bee, honeybee, lesserbee etcs. that show wobbles? I can think of one post a member here had of a bumble bee with wobbles and thats all. The combos have become more common I would have expected some more threads on the topic if spider combos were showing wobble signs.

Maybe we should start a poll thread with the different spider combos and ask users to vote if they exhibit wobbles.

[RandyRemington]

Caramels are known for kinks not Cinnies.

Actually homozygous cinnamon have both tendencies to duck bill and kink going on. It's probably just easier to hide a kink in a picture.

I remember when the spinning thing first went public for spiders (years and years into the project) it was thought that the combos spun more because some of the first combos at shows where wobblers. My theory is that there where enough regular spiders to pick from that only non spinners where taken to the show but the first combos where so neat that they where taken even if spinning.

[asplundii]

I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

I am inclined to agree with you KC. "Wobble" comes from the spider gene, adding some other morph to the mix does not remove the spider gene. I think the reason we have this rumor is the same as the reason there is an identical rumor on Jag carpets when coupled with other morphs. The combo animals are higher cash animals and the last thing a breeder selling a lesserbee or a spinnerblast wants to contend with is losing a sale because of "wobble"...

We see many posts about people and their spiders exhibiting some sort of wobble? Where are all the bumble bee, honeybee, lesserbee etcs. that show wobbles? I can think of one post a member here had of a bumble bee with wobbles and thats all.

There is a YouTube vid of a spinner that is going total spaz. And at shows I have seen multiple bees twirling. They are out there, you just have to look.

The combos have become more common I would have expected some more threads on the topic if spider combos were showing wobble signs.

As I said above, I think the combos do wobble but people just do not talk about it. Hell, there is still a fracas every time someone brings up their normal spider having "wobble", how big a tempest in a teacup do you think it would make if people were to start bringing up their train-wreck queenbees?? There is a stigma about the "wobble" in spiders. All spiders "wobble". Period. It may be minor, it may be major but it is always there. Kevin has said it. Ralph has said it. Why we can not just accept that and move on I do not understand. They live fine, they eat fine, they shed fine, they defecate fine. So why is it that everyone with a spider can not just accept that, yeah, they are a little tweak?? If you do not like the idea of an animal that "wobbles" then just do not get a spider. If you like the way the spider looks and you do not mind the "wobble" then go get a spider...

Maybe we should start a poll thread with the different spider combos and ask users to vote if they exhibit wobbles.

Maybe I am remembering wrong but I am pretty sure there is one on here somewhere...

[Freakie_frog]

Were they? I believe only one wild spider has ever been found, and all of our captive spiders are descended from that one animal. I have no idea if he was an adult, or maybe even a CH, which would mean he never was in the wild at all. I suspect the wobbling issues may be related to why another wild spider has never been found. If he was CH, or if he was young when captured, maybe he is the original mutant, and just never got a chance to breed. Or maybe he is the original mutant, was able to survive ok, but his wobbling preventing him from breeding in the wild. Who knows? But even if spiders may not be able to survive and reproduce in the wild, that doesn't mean that most of them aren't plenty healthy enough to be just fine in captivity. Albinos don't do too well in the wild either, but just because they are an easy target for a predator doesn't have any negative affect on them in captivity at all.

The first spider was a WC Juvi if memory serves. Does this mean that he is the only spider ever produced in the wild..My thoughts would be no..Since its a "dominate" gene either its mom or dad had to look like a spider .

I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

Because we don't know the exact reason that a spider wobbles it is possible that it is missing something on the genetic level that can be replaced by adding another gene in with it. We just don't know.

I've not been aware of BP morphs for long enough to be sure, but it seems to be that there are fewer problems with caramels kinking than there used to be. Maybe all the outcrossing that has been done as people produce hets and combos has helped. Also, some people are trying to find ways to avoid it, for example I remember reading about someone (Tim Bailey maybe?) who was keeping track of some stuff regarding humidity during incubation because there may be a correlation.

Or maybe because there is such a huge stink about the kinking that breeders are just not admitting they produce them or aren't showing them to people. There is a theory that the internal pressure of the egg can increase the risk of kinking in the Caramels. Tims idea is to lower the humidity and by doing so reducing the internal pressure of the egg. Its still just a theory..It also may be genetic like scoliosis in people

So I think there is lots of possibilities to reduce or eliminate some of the problems that are seen with some of the reptile morphs. Reptile breeding is still in its infancy compared to something like dog breeding. I actually think the reptile world is doing WONDERFULLY by selecting for colors. Compare it to such things as the already mentioned dog breeds, or long fins on fish which make it hard for them to swim, or quarter horses with tiny feet which often caused lameness issues, and you'll probably agree we could be doing a lot worse.

I agree I my mind we are doing better at trying to produce better quality animals. In time we may see some of the problems and oddity's we are now facing be bred out.

[Spaniard]

I haven't really done much searching on youtube, but I will. I've no doubt that spiders have wobbles or that combo morphs exhibit it as well. But I honestly thought the frequency in its occurance in combos was reduced.

I think its a shame that there is so much uncertainty and misinformation regarding such a commonly used combo trait. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thought combos were at a lower risk.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

The first spider was a WC Juvi if memory serves. Does this mean that he is the only spider ever produced in the wild..My thoughts would be no..Since its a "dominate" gene either its mom or dad had to look like a spider .

Not necessarily ... It's entirely possible that the first spider imported was one that arose through spontaneous mutation.

Because we don't know the exact reason that a spider wobbles it is possible that it is missing something on the genetic level that can be replaced by adding another gene in with it. We just don't know.

I tend to doubt that ... I guess it is theoretically possible, as we know so little about why, on a molecular level, most mutations manifest the way they do phenotypically, but I have a hard time envisioning that. For example, we could pretend that a spider looks like a spider because its neural crest cells migrate improperly (some NC cells being melanocyte precursors), and that this also somehow affects the migration of certain cells to some part of its nervous system, causing neuro signs. Now pretend that pastel occurs because the pastel has a mutation that decreases the amount of melanin produced. ... I just don't see how that pastel mutation (less melanin) is going to help make up for the improper NC cell/melanocyte migration mutation. (All of this is just speculation of course -- I have no idea what's going on on a molecular level to cause the spider phenotype -- but my point is that I have a hard time seeing a molecular reason that other mutations could "fix" the spider wobble.)

Does anyone know if the spider is truly just "dominant" -- meaning that homozygous spiders exist, and just look identical to the heterozygous form -- or if spider is homozygous lethal?

What I wonder is whether the wobble is caused by the spider mutation itself (some epistatic effect), or whether the "wobble gene" is just very close to the "spider gene" on the chromosome, so they're currently linked. If it's the former, I'm not totally sure how it would be possible to "breed out" the wobble -- seems like then it would just be a part of the spiders that we have to accept (or fail to accept, and therefore choose not to work with the mutation). If it's linkage, though, with enough outcrossing we could potentially get rid of that wobble gene ...