Pine shavings.

[wilomn]

Is there any research that verifies that pine is detrimental to the extent that it will shorten life spans by decades?

I can't find any.

If you've got it, and it's not from your friend who knew a guy that said so, I'd like to see it.

[wilomn]

Is there any research that verifies that pine is detrimental to the extent that it will shorten life spans by decades?

I would think that the vehemence with which some of those posting have let their views be known that substantiating facts would be but a moment in production, surely hiding on discs and in secret memory caches for just such a query as mine.

It seems that, once again, I have erred.

heh

Who'd a thought?

[kc261]

I believe I've read somewhere that in the old days, people didn't know better, and lots of people kept their snakes on pine.

If I were placing money on a bet, I'd say that it is at least possible to keep a snake healthy and use kiln dried pine bedding. But you'd probably need lots of ventilation to keep harmful vapors to a minimum, and ventilation would be problematic in a BP enclosure because that would make it hard to keep up humidity. I'd also think very prompt changing of the bedding any time it was soiled or water was spilled would be a must.

Just because I think it is probably possible doesn't mean I'd do it myself. There are plenty of alternatives, so why use something that is potentially causing harm to my animals? Even if that harm is only on a low level that I'd never notice, I'd rather just pick one of the other options.

[pavlovk1025]

I would think that the vehemence with which some of those posting have let their views be known that substantiating facts would be but a moment in production, surely hiding on discs and in secret memory caches for just such a query as mine.

It seems that, once again, I have erred.

heh

Who'd a thought?

Known fact-pine contains oils that are toxic and unsafe for reptiles.



Main Entry:1tox·ic
Pronunciation:\ˈtäk-sik\
Function:adjective
Etymology:Late Latin toxicus, from Latin toxicum poison, from Greek toxikon arrow poison, from neuter of toxikos of a bow, from toxon bow, arrow
Date:1664
1 : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation <toxic waste> <a toxic radioactive gas> <an insecticide highly toxic to birds>


If your snake dies or becomes debilitated and consequently dies, and you used pine bedding that wasn't kiln dried...I'd say you just shortened the life span of your snake by decades. But you're a facts person, so sorry I dont have a ready link available to appease you.

[wilomn]

If your snake dies or becomes debilitated and consequently dies, and you used pine bedding that wasn't kiln dried...I'd say you just shortened the life span of your snake by decades. But you're a facts person, so sorry I dont have a ready link available to appease you.

Yup, I like facts. They are often quite interesting.

Are you now saying that your previous blanket statement covering all pine bedding was inaccurate?

Facts are interesting.

Is it a fact that dried pine, assuming of course, that we are now speaking ONLY of kiln dried pine, does give off these, what was that newfangled word you were so kind to define for me....toes in or oxen or something like that, it was hard to see through the vitriol you left on the screen, anyway, them things what ain't good to breathe?

You see, it would seem to me, dolt that I am, that if the pine was dry, there would be no fumes, scent perhaps, but not fumes.

Let me return your unasked for but most sincerely appreciated ASSistance:
fume
  /fyum/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fyoom] Show IPA noun, verb, fumed, fum⋅ing.
–noun
1. Often, fumes. any smokelike or vaporous exhalation from matter or substances, esp. of an odorous or harmful nature: tobacco fumes.

Of course, this is all predicated on daily checks on your snake to insure that a tipped water bowl was taken care of as soon as possible, which I have absolutely not a doubt in the world is exactly, without exception, how it goes with you.

Neh?

[Skiploder]

I would think that the vehemence with which some of those posting have let their views be known that substantiating facts would be but a moment in production, surely hiding on discs and in secret memory caches for just such a query as mine.

It seems that, once again, I have erred.

heh

Who'd a thought?

I'm glad you brought this up.

Back in the old days, when I was young(er) and apparently stupid(er) I kept my reptiles on dried pine shavings. Those snakes lived long and fruitful lives - some are even still with me.

I live close to a livestock supply store that stocks Harlan-Teklad shredded aspen at a very good price - so a couple of years ago I made the switch.

I've read the toxicology reports on cedar, and I have read anecdotal evidence that pine can cause issues with the liver along with potential allergic and/or respiratory problems.

I've read Debbie Ducommun's report on the toxicity of cedar and pine shavings which cites soft wood studies done in the 90s on rodents http://exoticpets.about.com/gi/dynam...g/litters.html and I've read the studies on which they were based.

There is also a rebuttal of sorts at http://exoticpets.about.com/gi/dynam....geo/Pine.html . which addresses Ducommun's article and the studies it was based on.

With all that said, I've never had a problem, and there are some well-known breeder's out there who have used or currently use kiln-dried pine without issues.

So how many people who have responded to the OP actually have some experience with kiln-dried pine shavings? How many have had health issues that they can prove are linked to this bedding?

Or are we just regurgitating what has been read elsewhere?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I will say no, for no reason will you ever catch me using pine shavings with my snakes now, no matter how it was dried. Sorry but I am not willing to try and save a few bucks to even *possibly* risk my snake's health. I don't get why anyone would, just freaking use what is KNOWN and undisputably safe and you won't have any problems.

I also will add that I would love to see some actual proof behind these statements that I have heard countless and innumerable times, because in my younger, stupid-er (lol) days, I too used pine on ALL of my snakes. I never had any health issues, all of my snakes remained outwardly healthy. All of the snakes that I never ended up selling/moving out of the collection are still with me! But the moment that I learned that pine is no good, I switched and never looked back. For about 2 years I kept my entire collection on aspen shavings, but I have recently switched to something even better... newspaper pellets. These are pellets of recycled newspaper. The brand I use is kittysoft (packaged as cat litter) but is half the price of yesterday's news and is the same friggin thing in a different package. I always hated how aspen shavings get everywhere, on food, in the water bowl, on the carpet and then dragged by my socks to the rest of the house. With newspaper pellet, my favorite thing about it is that it rarely sticks to food, and if it does, it's like one piece, and you can swish it away with the tongs in a second. it's also extremely absorbant, completely clean and will not come with bugs like some wood shavings *might*. It does not get flung into the water bowls like the aspen, it doesn't stick to me and get drug all over the house, and it is doing well even with my higher humidity animals such as my BP's. If a BP spills their water overnight and I don't notice it RIGHT away, I don't have to worry about that nasty black mold that seems to almost instantaneously appear on aspen when it is wetted and in a rack system where it cannot quickly dry.

[tonkatoyman]

As far as it goes we hedge on the safe and use news paper. Even if the pine proved to be internally nontoxic I would still not use it personally. I deal with a lot of pine in my job and i know that even in kiln dried pine shavings you will get shavings that are absolutely saturated with pine rosin. wood soaked in rosin we used to call lighter knot (in my boy scout days) because it would light like gasoline and start a fire real easy. It is also sticky and irritating on the skin. Ican't immagine what that would do to an animals skin with no limbs or paws to remove it. Soo even if it proves nontoxic I vote no on the pine bedding. My .02 for what it is worth

[wilomn]

I'd start a poll, but that's too much effort.

I'm wondering how many of you No pine users also go along with the world being flat.

You can just post yes if you do and no if you don't, no need for explanations, just a matter of curiosity.

[m00kfu]

Wait, what? The world is flat?!