Question About Feeding Stunned Mice

[Exotic Ectotherms]

Let me preface my question by stating that I feed my BP frozen/thawed. However, I read on some of the threads that people have BP's that will only accept live or "stunned" mice. Is there a humane way to stun a mouse, and if so how? Is this an acceptable practice in the hobby? I have never had to feed any of my snakes this way....I was just curious.

BTW...i'm not trying to start any controversy, but I know that this may a touchy subject with many people. I have the utmost respect for any animal, including feeders.

Thank You.

[Dave79]

Let me preface my question by stating that I feed my BP frozen/thawed. However, I read on some of the threads that people have BP's that will only accept live or "stunned" mice. Is there a humane way to stun a mouse, and if so how? Is this an acceptable practice in the hobby? I have never had to feed any of my snakes this way....I was just curious.

BTW...i'm not trying to start any controversy, but I know that this may a touchy subject with many people. I have the utmost respect for any animal, including feeders.

Thank You.

It's kind of hard to stun a mouse. Usually if you try to stun them they'll die.

[JT20]

when the snake makes a good strike the split second between the bite and coil, the mouse always looks pretty stunned. but no seriously stunning is unnecessary and cruel the snakes are perfectly capable of dispatching a live functional feeder.

[Hapa_Haole]

To stun them you can put them in a bag and bash them against something hard like the floor. You can also place a firm object like a ruler at the place where the spinal cord meets the skull and give a quick upward pull to their tail, separating the two.

I don't condone any of these methods, they're just ways I've heard to do it. I've also heard that stunned rats that wake up mid coil are more prone to put up a fight.

And the most humane way to prepare fresh killed prey is to put them to sleep with CO2 and then after they're asleep crank it way up to kill them.

Dennis

[Sarin]

The only reason people stun feeders (that I am aware of anyway) is to make sure the animal doesn't harm the snake. But I agree with JT20, the mice/rats are usually pretty stunned the instant they're struck at and coiled. So IMO there's no need for it and I also believe there's no humane way to manually stun a feeder.

Just my $0.02.

[Kenchap]

The only reason people stun feeders (that I am aware of anyway) is to make sure the animal doesn't harm the snake. But I agree with JT20, the mice/rats are usually pretty stunned the instant they're struck at and coiled. So IMO there's no need for it and I also believe there's no humane way to manually stun a feeder.

Just my $0.02.

Well it may not be humane But when feeding 100+ animals I like to stun them and go on to the next. makes me feel safer that My animals are not being nawd on by Vermon!

[BAD Morphs]

I also feed live stunned for the reasons previosly stated. So it does not bite, scratch or claw the snake incase of a bad strike. If they don't eat it I throw it in the freezer and unthaw next time I feed. Let me just say that this was the way I was tought when I was young and never heard anything different but now being a member on this forumand a bit older and more knowledgable about the industry I have just got into contact with a frozen breeder dealer in my area so I can buy in bulk and save some money on feedings. I have 7 bp's total and am going to switch to f/t as soon as I meet up with this feeder dealer on tuesday. None of my snakes seem to prefer live over f/t but if I ever came across that problem I would still stunn before feeding just incase. This is just my opinion and way of doing things. I am in no way saying it is right or wrong!

[MarkS]

I personally do not think there is a non-cruel way to 'stun' mice. Stunning implys that they'll wake up again eventually. However I have no qualms about feeding 'fresh killed' mice. When you kill a mouse through cervical dislocation or by smacking it on a hard surface, the mouse is dead, but the nerve impulses will still cause the mouse to twitch and kick for a while so it still looks alive. This movement will often get reluctant snakes to feed without the danger that the mouse will suddenly take a bite out of them. I think when most people say 'stunned' they really mean 'fresh killed' and if the mouse DOESN'T die and wakes up again, they're obviously not doing it right and yes I think that IS cruel.

[Exotic Ectotherms]

Thanks for all of the great input. I kinda expected some mixed responses. I personally don't have a problem with feeding a fresh killed mouse, but I don't think I could "stun" one without ensuring it was dead. I certainly understand the safety factor for the snake....that's why I feed F/T, but I assume some snakes simply are not satisfied with that.

[kc261]

As MarkS pointed out, there is a rather big and important difference between stunning a mouse, and killing it. I do not believe it is as common as f/t or live feeding, but feeding pre-killed prey is definitely something that lots of people do and it is perfectly acceptable as long as it is done right.

Stunning is just cruel and dangerous, and very hard to do right. If you use slightly too much force, the mouse will be dead. If you don't use quite enough, the mouse will either stay conscious the entire time, which is obviously very cruel, or there is the possibility it will wake up after you have put it in your snake's enclosure, which has the potential to be dangerous to the snake because the mouse is likely to wake up in a very defensive mode. This would be especially dangerous to any snake that will just start eating the disabled prey, rather than constricting it first.

Pre-killing is fine, as long as you do it correctly. There are 3 methods I am aware of. Cervical dislocation (breaking the neck) is easy and effective, and once you learn how much force to use, you'll never end up with a stunned but not dead mouse. In fact, I think if you don't use enough force, the mouse won't even be stunned. It is not for the faint of heart, though. CO2 is also a good method, but it does require a bit more effort to get set up. Once you have a CO2 set-up, it is not too much of a hassle. There is a chance if you don't leave them in the CO2 long enough that they could wake back up, but when they do they should be a little groggy at first, so it should give you and/or your snake time to react before the mouse has a chance to do anything. Finally, a lot of people whack the mouse. While a good hard whack probably could be considered a quick and humane death, this method has greater potential for creating an inhumane situation if you don't whack the mouse hard enough. For this reason, and since there are other, better methods available, I recommend against using the whacking method.

Personally, I find feeding live to be a good alternative also. With RARE exceptions, the mice die very quickly after being struck. Since there would be the occasional miss with any of the pre-killing methods also, I don't feel that allowing the snake to do the job nature intended is any less humane.