Big snakes, small enclosures.

[mumps]

I got into this hobby because reptiles fascinate the hell out of me. Their patterns, colors, behaviors, mysteriousness all intrigue me to no end.

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you. You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you. You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

You think they are content in there? Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue. If big breeders can make all that money and be successful breeding by using these tubs then they must be all that. Just because something works doesn't mean it is good for the animals. Chickens lay a lot of eggs cooped up 4 in a square foot of space. Does that mean they're happy? Gorillas in zoos used to live in a concrete room with a tire on a chain. They lived, grew old and entertained millions of visitors. Why the change to large natural environments where on some days visitors never even get to see them?

I guess what it boils down to is personal preferance. I like to see, touch, interact and learn from my animals. Nothing is cooler to me than to have something which so many fear and loathe trust you and know that you mean them no harm. I'm talking gators, varanids and the giant snakes. They, to me, are the best. So maybe that's one of the reasons... am I jealous that I can't find a tub big enough for 7 foot water monitors? Or 16 foot retics? No. I just don't comprehend the idea of purchasing a 5 thousand dollar morph and stuffing it into a drawer and looking at it once a week...

The only tub I would agree upon would be the 8 footers Brian mentioned. I would suppose that would be alright for a blood python.

And I am not attacking Brian. He has a huge business and he is doing the best he can in order to make a living. He's a mass production facility. Not a hobbyist. He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford. Good for him.

Chris

[wilomn]

So, from your years of interactive observance you've learned that snakes are like gorillas......

Well, I guess we could go BACK to the how is a mammalian need relevant to this thread, but we've been there and done that and frankly, since your mind is made up, I see little point in revisiting it.

I feel no need to convince you of anything.

[Spaniard]

Mumps you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the people here, they're motives for doing things etc.

I don't think you answered any of my questions, for a second I thought you might actually be on to something after 30 years experience under your belt.

[Buttons]

He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford.
Chris

Really?

[mumps]

Really?

I see from your sig that you have a handful of his snakes, axanthic pins perhaps?

Chris

[stormwulf133]

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you. You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you. You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

You think they are content in there? Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue.

Chris

I have stayed out of this thread for too long. But you think tubs are bad. So I keep my ball pythons in tubs, where they shed, eat, poop regularly, as well as grow, thermoregulate, breed, live in correct humidity, and easy to clean environments, and that is wrong. And the person who keeps a ball python in a 75 gallon tank, where it paces endlessly, never finding an ideal spot to be comfortable, is covered in stuck sheds because humidity is incorrect, and ends up with RI because the heat isn't correct, is the one that is right?

I am pretty sure the fact that an extremely picky species of snake, eats better, and in general thrives better in a tub, means something.

Are tubs right for all animals? No. Are the tried and tested correct for some? Yes!

I think the problem is, a few people suffer from a closed mind, and a holier than thou-issue.

[Buttons]

I see from your sig that you have a handful of his snakes, axanthic pins perhaps?

Chris

There are many people out there with expensive morphs from BHB who AREN'T "mass production facilities". That is a ridiculous statement to make.

[mumps]

I'm interested, after 30 years what exactly in the way of behavior has shown you that these are smart snakes? What exactly is torture to a snake? How have they expressed it to you? What exactly entails a snake being itself?

If we've yet to scratch the surface of behavior studies how can you be so sure of your own conclusions?

Just curious...

My last thread was trying to convey some of my thoughts, not answer your questions. I'll give you some answers, as best I can.

Behavior = smart. A lot of keepers believe that snakes run on instinct only and are incapable of learning. They only know it's feeding time if they smell food, etc.

I had a burm that I raised, and every mealtime I tapped on the left hand wall outside his enclosure before opening it to offer food. He learned this ritual and was very enthusiastically greeting me when I did the tap...

What is torture to a snake? Giving it a home range of 2 square feet. Just because something can survive in a certain manner doesn't mean it should.

How is a snake "being itself". By swimming if it wants to swim. Climbing if it wants to climb. Hiding if it wants to hide. Eating if it wants to eat. Sleeping if it wants to sleep. Breeding if it wants to breed. The only option tubs provide is sleeping and the occasional breeding.

As for Wes, my aren't you a clever one. Besides the fact that you keep 5 foot snakes in 12 inch square tubs, what has made you such a leading expert in the fields of herpetoculture/herpetology? Your ability to be articulate really seems to impress the masses here. I was not saying snakes are like gorillas. I was stating the progress that humans have made in understanding the real needs of animals in order for them to thrive in captivity. As I stated earlier, when people first observed crocs moving their young to the safety of the water, it was believed that they were eating their young (maybe you're not old enough to be aware of this fact). We now know, at least some of us, that they are actually caring parents. Did you know afrock hatchlings stay near their mother until their first shed? Basking and burrowing right along side her? I'm glad you feel you have no need to convince me of anything, as I highly doubt that you could.

Chris

[mumps]

I have stayed out of this thread for too long. But you think tubs are bad. So I keep my ball pythons in tubs, where they shed, eat, poop regularly, as well as grow, thermoregulate, breed, live in correct humidity, and easy to clean environments, and that is wrong. And the person who keeps a ball python in a 75 gallon tank, where it paces endlessly, never finding an ideal spot to be comfortable, is covered in stuck sheds because humidity is incorrect, and ends up with RI because the heat isn't correct, is the one that is right?

I am pretty sure the fact that an extremely picky species of snake, eats better, and in general thrives better in a tub, means something.

Are tubs right for all animals? No. Are the tried and tested correct for some? Yes!

I think the problem is, a few people suffer from a closed mind, and a holier than thou-issue.

No. It just means that the person using the 75 gallon tank isn't doing it right. Perhaps tubs are a "snakes for dummies" answer? I don't know. If you don't know how to take care of something, don't keep it.

I don't use tanks either.

Chris

[stormwulf133]

No. It just means that the person using the 75 gallon tank isn't doing it right. Perhaps tubs are a "snakes for dummies" answer? I don't know. If you don't know how to take care of something, don't keep it.

I don't use tanks either.

Chris

And those of us who use tubs could say the same to those who DON'T.