No HR 669 Thread from another site

[JohnNJ]

Mods: Please remove this thread if you don't think it's appropriate. I removed any identifying info but I thought others here might be interested in the responses I received from a non-animal related forum. Not sure if I handled it correctly because I was so shocked by the replies.
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Important - Pets in Peril

JohnNJ -> Important - Pets in Peril (4/12/2009 6:12:45 PM)

What is HR 669?

H.R. 669 stands for House Resolution 669 and is titled "The Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act". It is a bill currently before Congress that if passed will change the way that the US Government classifies animal species that are not native to the United States. H.R. 669 will make it illegal to breed and sell many animals that are very common in the pet trade.

Why should you care about HR 669?

Anyone with pet fish, birds, reptiles, or small mammals will be affected by this bill. Any company selling products or services for pet fish, birds, reptiles or small mammals will be affected by this bill. Would you be impacted by "The Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act"?
Virtually all fish in an aquarium are not native to the United States
Most pet birds are species not native to the US
Most reptiles kept as pets are not native to the US
Hamsters, gerbils, guinea pigs and ferrets are not native to the US
http://www.nohr669.com/video.htm

There is a hearing on H.R. 669 scheduled for April 23rd in the House Committee on Natural Resources. Don't wait, the time to act is now! Please visit http://www.nohr669.com

Thanks.
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User 1 - RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/12/2009 9:20:25 PM)

Well, I can see both sides of the arguement. The problem is, not everyone involved in the pet trade (both sellers and buyers) are always doing what they are supposed to. We've all seen the recent photos of the invasive snakes (pythons) being hauled out of Florida and the everglades. We can only guess, but let's assume that a python escaped from its owner's care - rather than the worse "the python got too big so we dumped it." Either way, the snake either found freedom, or was given it... I know people are thinking, well it's a snake or two -- big deal. Wrong, just ask anyone who is currently living (or was recently stationed) on Guam. Guam used to have an incredible bird population with several species only found on that island. Unfortunately a snake or two found it's way to the island via a ship or plane. The snake didn't swim there, but rather caught a ride with something man-made. Just a few years later, you won't find a single bird living on Guam. It's not a wild story -- it's true and it has already happened. These snakes made their way (with human help) to where they have no natural enemies, and they were able to quickly take over - eating the eggs right out of the birds nests. In just a few years, all the bids are GONE. It doesn't take much to mess with an ecosystem, but it's INCREDIBLY difficult if not downright impossible to change things back.

Now I will admit that the laws will likely go too far as things within our Government have a tendancy to do. I don't tend to believe we've got a huge hampster problem in the US, just as I don't think angelfish are causing serious grief. That said, there is a problem brewing -- and if we single out just the Python (or some other species) folks will just switch to importing boas or some other creature which likewise has no business being here. When the native species are gone, they're gone...
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User 2 - RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/12/2009 9:49:39 PM)

OHHH here I go ... I am very much for this new Resolution!!!

I have had almost every pet you can think of in my care at some point in my life. YUP, I even had a pet trantula for several years.

You see I am a volunteer for the SPCA and also sit on the board for the gulf coast Golden retriever rescue society.

You think THEM is dumb when it comes to Disney?! Them is about 100 times more dumb when it comes to pet ownership!

Exotics are cool, I had a ferret for 12 years who went everywhere with me. He was also well trained and polite.
People would see him and would want a ferret ASAP ... it sadden me. Yes, I train animals ..its my great love... but due to how successful I am, there is no way I would own an exotic to bring forth their popularity.

Do you know how many ferrets end up in shelters?! Do you know how many are caught in the wild?! People buy them at the pet store with no license, NEVER take them to see a vet (YES they are required to have shots just like a dog or cat)
they can and often do catch heartworms.... that isn't a dog only disease!
Owner education is null and void and most people think they are buying a hamster than a 2 year old =/
I think there should be extremely strong license agreements before breeding or owning a ferret. I LOVE them and that's why I say this... I have seen WAY TOO many traumitized, abused and neglected ferrets for my life thank you... don't wish to see anymore!

Birds? I LOVE birds. My mother has a rescued Amazon parrot who has has had for almost 30 years. He hates most people but tolerates me and loves my mom. He was caught in the wild... and ilegally brought to the US. He then ended up with a rescue group ... with no feathers due to mites and chewing, mean as all heck with only 1 eye and missing 3 claws... yup he makes for a site =)
He was so scared of people we thought there was no chance for him =(
He did *ok* with my mom so she brought him home. After 30 years of TLC, he allows her near him and to touch him. He is still terrified of 99.9% of humans. He has his own sun room, climbing tree and is rarely ever placed in a cage.

Most birds spend their entire lives in a cage... maybe being allowed out once a week... if that. Owners selfishly leave dirty cages and either the owners get sick from the many diseases birds carry or the birds get sick.
I believe people should have to get a license before owning a bird. I have seen way too many neglected and abused birds to last me a lifetime thank you very much....

Fish?! Well let me tell you what my hobby USED to be many moons ago ... coral reef tank and salt water fish. I had an extremely expensive hobby. I had 3 150 gallon tanks filled with the latest technologies and gadgets and the really nice fish.
UNTIL... yup until I started reading up on how these fish are caught.
Those beautiful fish you see in the pet store? GOOD chance (like 90%) they were caught using sianyde poisoning ... they use it to shock the water, the fish float to the top and they catch them... OHHH they show nice pics of net caught fish but thats not the reality as shocking the water is much faster and nets the same profit. The fish, after being shocked, only lives a year or two tops. That same fish would have lived 15-20 years in the wild.
As to the living corals, the way they are harvested now? they are killing off the reefs!

OK now on to reptiles ~ why do you really need a 16 foot boa that can and will eat a child if given a chance? Why not a king snake or pine snake that stays smaller? For that matter the majority of reptiles are NOT taken care of properly in the majority of homes. Many owners do not even KNOW about u/v lightening, proper humidity and ventilation. Most reptiles in the hands of humans are less then healthy... and those are the well loved ones! I can't tell you how many times neglected and abused reptiles end up in shelters due to drug raids or people abandoning them in tanks. Few realize the actual space a 16 foot snake needs to be healthy and happy!
I think anyone who owns a reptile should have to get a license to own one.

NOW with all of that off my chest ... I agree ferrets, sugar gliders, tigers, and conurs all have their desirability. They are adorable, some have great personalities BUT really ... ask yourself where these animals come from. I know none of you would ever purchase a dog from a *puppy mill* and have seen video of puppy mills and are horrified. DO you honestly think foriegn trade is any different?!?!
Some of the worst *mills* are of these exotic animals being shipped to pet stores all over the world.

Since the pet store industry will never have to be held accountable ~ I say stop the trade at its source. If you really love the breed of animal ~ its the best way to ensure its survival.

Getting off soap box now =)
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JohnNJ -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 8:30:36 AM)

I'm going to guess that neither of you has a full understanding of this bill and are just having a knee jerk reaction.

This bill will stop the importation of all non-native species and will stop all breeding of non-native species. You will not be able to transport the animals you currently own across state lines. You will not be able to purchase these animals anymore. This will effect millions of people - people that want these animals as pets and people that work in the industry. Not just breeders and importers but also the people that make the food and supplies; it will create more unemployment and small businesses will have to close.

You mentioned 14 foot pythons - there are many species of pythons and some are only 3 feet and cannot eat children. As far as I know we lose more people in the US to alligators and stupid parents than to pythons.

As for Guam, it is a serious situation that could have and should have been corrected years ago when it was first discovered. Unfortunately, the government of Guam squandered the money it was given by the people of the United States to help fix the problem.

This bill is badly written and your representatives need to be made aware of it while it's still in committee. Visit the website to send a free e-mail before the committee meets so that they can take a serious look and make the necessary changes so that it doesn't do more harm than good.

Thanks.

NoHR669.com
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User 2 -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 9:47:52 AM)

I'm going to guess that neither of you has a full understanding of this bill and are just having a knee jerk reaction.

Oh I fully understand this bill.[]

I also am *getting* that this has to hit you financially in some way []

Its a super touchy sore subject with me. ANYTIME you add the word *profit* to animal breeding/ selling the object is to decrease cost to increase profit. The result? Pet's are not taken care of properly.

I WILL NOT post some of the horrible horrible images of Ferret breeding farms, guinea pig mills, and reptile housing breeding. They would turn your stomach... and this is a family site.

This bill will stop the importation of all non-native species and will stop all breeding of non-native species.

No it does not. Zoos and PROPER licensed NON PROFIT organizations will still be able to breed. What it does is stops the mills from SELLING to idiots who decide they can't take care of their pet and toss them out the door.

This will effect millions of people - people that want these animals as pets and people that work in the industry. Not just breeders and importers but also the people that make the food and supplies; it will create more unemployment and small businesses will have to close.

Yup it sure will. Had these people been responsible in the first place there would have been no need for these laws. They sold enough ferrets to little johnnie and his mommy ...without making sure they knew everything and followed up with the ferret to cause their own downfall.

Its the same exact thing with puppy mills. We see them all the time on TV. Breeders sell these to pet stores. Anyone that is into making a profit on an animal ~ is doing the animal WRONG. A good responsible breeder WILL tell you in a NY minute that if properly cared for you can't make a profit off the breeding of an animal. You can't.... all animals need to see a vet, be screened at least twice. Reptiles need to go to the vet SEVERAL times to make sure they do not have internal parasites. They also need to have their bones screened to make sure they are getting enough calcium. They have to be offered high end veggies and small amounts of live meal worms. They have to have UV lighing, a real room or cage (not a fish tank with no ventilation) a heat rock, humidity and heat adjuster to regulate temp. NOW how much with this cost a breeder if done correctly?! Do you honestly think they could sell their iguana's for $15 if this was done?

As for Guam, it is a serious situation that could have and should have been corrected years ago when it was first discovered. Unfortunately, the government of Guam squandered the money it was given by the people of the United States to help fix the problem.

It happens EVERYWHERE. Seriously, do some serious research where these *pets* come from.

Visit the website to send a free e-mail before the committee meets so that they can take a serious look and make the necessary changes so that it doesn't do more harm than good.

Not on your life bud. I love animals and I end up picking up the pieces of their lives when some idiot buys a ferret, snake, cavy, hamster at a pet store and abuses, starves, pokes its eyes out and burns it with cigars.
YUP that is me ... I take these throw aways and have to decide if they can be worth saving. I have to *fix* their emotional scars, their physical scars and try to give them happiness with a new owner that knows everything about the breed... and then hope for the best.

If they were made illegal I would NOT have to look into their eyes of suffering because some stupid petshop owner sold an animal for profit with no concern whatsoever what happened to the animal.

IF YOU are so concerned about them still being allowed to BREED and be sold ... I highly suggest you join the SPCA and spend 6 months helping these animals that fall through the cracks. You scrape the fecal matter out of their fur and eyes, treat their infections.....

We see it on Animal Cops all the time with dogs and cats.... ferrets and cavy's are MUCH MUCH worse in most situations as they are hidden in a back bedroom and forgotten!
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JohnNJ -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 10:25:50 AM)

User 2: You obviously have an axe to grind so I'll end our discussion now and respect your right to an opinion. PETA supports this bill as written because it will help eliminate pet ownership, one of their stated goals.

FYI - I have no financial or political interest in this bill. I am a pet owner and animal lover. I have rescued various animals and have volunteered at animal shelters. My children have 3 cats, 2 Geckos, 5 Hermit Crabs, 1 Ball Python and a Fire Belly Toad. They are also bugging me about another dog.

Visit the website and view the video. Contact your representatives and let them know your views, whether you think the bill is good, bad or just needs revision. I just wanted to make people aware.

NoHR669.com
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User 2 -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 10:27:41 AM)

Here is a GREAT NON PROFIT seeking animal rights group that is for this bill ..hmm you know them well

Oh lookie here The Humane Society is for this bill

https://community.hsus.org/campaign/...nnativewildife


ALL animal welfare groups are FOR THIS BILL... SPCA, PETA, Human society...

it seems the ones who stand to make a profit are the loudest to denounce this bill...

things that make you go hmmmmmm

So either:
1. Do some more homework or
2. Get out of the pet industry
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User 2 -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 10:38:32 AM)

Fire Belly Toad

Are you telling me your children spend the 3 grand it takes to properly take care of a fire belly toad? Do they have a humitifier attached to the tanks WITH venelation? What is the water/land ratio of the tank? What kind of water is used? Is the PH tested and if so what is it?
What kind of lightening and does it effect the total temp. of the cage? How often is this fire belly toad touched? Every touch can kill it...
due to the membranes. It takes at least 3 grand to properly house a fire belly toad. I bet the pet store didn't tell you that, did they?!
They need a fully working non touching terarium including earth worms to clean the soil.

2 Geckos

See above ... geckos should not be for the home hobbyist. They need a great deal of care. Do you take your geckos to the vet 2 times a year to be screened for calcium deficiency and internal parasites? Two times a year EVERY year?

1 Ball Python

Again ~ how many times has it been to the vet? The REQUIRED twice a year every year? What about the cage? The lightening? The humidity and temp of the cage? How do you regulate these?

To be honest with the list of exotics you have just given... you should have at least 15 grand worth of equipment in your home... I am sure this is the case as you are so very concerned about the care of these animals
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JohnNJ -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 10:42:10 AM)

ORIGINAL: User 2

ALL animal welfare groups are FOR THIS BILL... SPCA, PETA, Human society[HSUS]...

'nuff said.

NoHR669.com

[JohnNJ]

These came in after my initial post.

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Moderator -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 11:03:51 AM)

User 2, this subject is obviously close to your heart. But I think you will find that most [members] are animal lovers. And have good useful brains that form opinions which often differ from one another. And [members] respect those differences.

My opinion since the beginning of this thread was that, while I gleaned that JohnNJ was opposed to this legislation, he was inviting me and other [members] to become aware and form our own opinion and take whatever action we each deemed appropriate. And you initially shared another opinion.

And now, that is done. And so should be the posts to this thread. Because it's getting snarky and personal. And [this forum] doesn't like snarky and personal. []

Namaste.
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User 2 -> RE: Important - Pets in Peril (4/13/2009 11:03:55 AM)

My children have 3 cats, 2 Geckos, 5 Hermit Crabs, 1 Ball Python and a Fire Belly Toad. They are also bugging me about another dog.

First off, children DO NOT own pets []

Second .. currently living under my roof

1. 12 year old corgi named pepper who was beat so severely in the head as a pup she has brain damage. She is beautiful but due to her brain damage would have never found a home. She is extremely sweet and loving and has been a wonderful addition to our family. As she came from a puppy mill the medical cost to get her strait would boggle your mind.

2. a 10 year old lab mix named China. While I was volunteering one afternoon this poor starved 4 month old pup was brought in. She has cigar burns from one end of her tummy to the other. She was starved and had her tail broken in 3 places. She was terrified of humans. She would just duck and shake and cry when a human came near her. The dept. manager thought it was best to put her down and out of her misery as these dogs GENERALLY do not do well in homes. I am an animal behaviorist and one look at her pitiful eyes and I took her home to reabilitate her. She grabbed my heart like no other animal and is my very best friend...oh and though she is still shy, she is extremely sweet natured and is a therapy dog that goes to nursing homes with me =)

3. My 16 year old cat named Sasha. She was thrown out of a 4 story window and abused greatly. She was another one that was never going to find a home due to her hate of humans. She was sweet on me so I took her home temporarily to help reabilitiate her. It took me 6 months to get her to come out from under the bed =( now she lives the life of luxury and is a sweety... though we all think she has brain damage due to her fall

4. My 15 year old orange tabby named Felix. We found him in a walmart parking lot in a puddle of mud. We didn't even have his eyes open and he was there with 2 syblings who were already dead. He was hairless, covered in fleas and had parasites. He had 2 ear infections and was about the most pitiful thing you have ever seen. DH fell in love with him and took him home. Our vet said there was no way he would make it... but DH bottlefed him and kept him in a pouch on his chest =) now the cat is the size of a lion LOL

5. The golden retriever in my avatar photo. He WAS a puppy mill dog. He was starved to the point of having no muscle mass. He has VSD and was so covered in fleas he had enemic. He is now on his way to becoming a therapy certified dog. Last month he was Wellness dog food's pet of the month and was featured on their website =) He will be a year old next month and is already a representitive of the Gulf south golden retirever rescue society, has already earned his AKC good citizenship award and is in advanced therapry dog training classes.

There are enough dogs and cats out there who need homes. If you really want a pet ... go to the shelter =)

There is no reason for the home family to have an exotic as a *pet*

[hoax]

User #2 obviously has an ax to grind. I can not see how some one can say they are an animal lover and spew that kind of poop.

[nixer]

User #2 obviously has an ax to grind. I can not see how some one can say they are an animal lover and spew that kind of poop.

thats what alot of those followers do!

[wolfy-hound]

Obvously a PETA member. We should all be punished for the sins of horrible people.
The solution to people abusing dogs is to ban all pets, that makes sense!
And the one saying that zoos and non-profits will be able to breed animals? Totally FALSE.

[snakelady]

There are bad pet owners in the world. There are good pet owners in the world.
There is good and bad in everything. This is a world of duplicity. Rescue people typically only see the bad and want to start banning things instead of educating. Should people who work at child abuse centers start suggesting that we outlaw having kids? NO.

Outlawing things usually does very little to correct the problems. It all comes down to education, and taking responsibility for ones actions.

One more thing, what a pompous person--saying that ball pythons are "required" to go to the vet twice a year! Give me a break.

[PythonWallace]

$3,000 to properly care for a fire belly toad?! A humidifier hooked up to the cage? Because a 20g vivarium can't hold humidity without a humidifier, and you can't get a humidifier for $15 or anything. And we all know that everyone who owns a large python has lost their family dog and infant.

Maybe we'd be better off not pointing possible crazies toward places to show emphatic knee-JERK support for the bill, and just pass it along to people and places that are known to appreciate animals and have some common sense. Dogs and cats are responsible for 1000x more injuries and deaths in the U.S. than reptiles, be they native, non-native or captive.

[Adam_Wysocki]

HSUS has been very public about their goal of eliminating all pet ownership by the year 2050. HR 669 is a step in making that goal a reality. That coupled with their mission to eliminate cat and dog breeding through their spay and neuter programs that seek to sterilize all cats and dogs in the United States would put us only a couple generations of pets away from making their goal a reality. If they can't get laws passed to ban the ownership of these animals, they'll make them all illegal to breed (and import) and once the last remaining pets die of old age, we are done and they will have succeeded.

As far as the poster in that thread that talked about permits for breeding for zoos and non-profits, NO WHERE in the text of 669 are non-profits mentioned and NO WHERE in 669 is there anything that says permits will be issued to allow breeding. It talks about permits being issued for "import", but not breeding. They obviously haven't read the bill and are towing the party line dictated to them by the animal rights activists.

Stuff like this is to be expected, but we have their numbers beat if we can all stand up, stand together, and say NO HR 669.

-adam

[Clementine_3]

It's those very reactions/arguments that worry me. I've been following this closely and almost cringe when I see suggestions of going to the local news or radio shows for this very reason. They won't do a one-sided story, they won't make all the views clear and will go to the local SPCA/PETA representatives for their take. The plight of the Everglades, Guam, the chimpanzee, the few Burm's that have killed their keepers will be highlighted because that is sensational...and that is what news stories thrive on.
I'm not saying we should not spread our concerns and to stop trying to garner support, I just think some caution needs to be used. Reptiles are at the heart of the bill as far as the general public is concerned and the general public would probably like to see them go.
I have been sending emails just like everyone here but I do it to those who I know will help with the cause, not harm it. Hopefully we can beat this back down and hopefully it will not make it any farther than a poorly written bill but it is never really going to go away, more will be right behind it.
There is, of course, going to be opposition, I think we just don't want to fuel the fire by going to the wrong places...
Just my .02

[ScottyBoa]

Agreed that this bill is their first attempt at a stepping stone. They see the exotic industry as an easty target and I think they're going to find out that all they've done is piss off a very large group of pet owners in the end. As for their spay and neuter programs for all dogs and cats... that will NEVER pass. The AKC could generate more money and support in a week then these idiots could ever dream of... ever. At least our pups are safe...