I had a difficult time coming up with a title for this thread/topic. Its hard to put in a title that which will hopefully garner the attention that I feel is needed. I'm posting my feelings / response regarding this issue before the material as I hope people will read this before going into the "meat" of this thread.

This is not a good guy / bad guy thread, which is why its not posted under Inquiry / Feedback. This is not an attempt to call someone out or bring someone under the spotlight, because honestly, both parties in the situation could be anyone. What this IS for, is to hopefully show an example of how two good, honest people ran afoul because of the caustic, parasitic, and darker side of this hobby / business / community.

I think most any one of us could be placed in either situation, and if looked upon objectively, can see why the stance was taken as is. I will state that I was the person inquiring about the available female ball python, but no more personal / particulars will be provided. I tried to scour through the emails (at least three to four times) to remove any personal or identifying information. I want this only to serve as a discussion (and hopefully spur a solution) starter and awareness, no more.



From my perspective, the questions I asked were completely appropriate, standard operating procedure, and something I'd assume folks would ask of me when I finally decide to dive in the deep end and start breeding. Its entirely possible that the questions I asked would be fine in most cases, but as you'll read, my situation yielded a "perfect storm" to which made the breeder uncomfortable.

The question to ask here, is why was the breeder uncomfortable and put on the defensive in the first place? The reason? Because the breeder has obviously been bit by scammers, the parasites, and filth of this community. I would have never personally thought about stealing pictures, though I've read boi's where people use other's pictures to sell/scam unsuspecting customers. It was the prior experience of this breeder that caused him/her to go on the defensive and be nervous at my inquiry.

I was certainly frustrated and surprised by the response, but I can't blame the breeder. Really... you work hard for your animals, you put in the effort, and then someone comes along and steals it, cheats you out of payment, or tarnishes your name in the process. No one here gets involved in this hobby/business/passion for the b.s., we do it because we love snakes, and we want to share our enjoyment with others - and heck, if we can make a couple bucks and friendships along the way, all the better.

But the problem here is not the breeder, the problem is the parasites, the scammers. What other business has this many scammers? Why are they attracted to this community in droves? Is it because of fast cash, the naivety of the community, or perhaps because there are no checks and balances, no repercussions for getting caught, and the anonymity of the Internet to do it over and over and over again? I could come up with a hundred ways to scam someone online and ways to counter it, and I'd still miss the remaining thousand.



What can we do as a community do to instill these checks and balances? I've been reading boi's for the past couple months. People get caught scamming all the time and then change their alias and are back at it. Worse, is they don't get punished when caught. Most jurisdictions won't pursue online sale fraud, and most breeders caught off-guard don't have the money or the time to fly cross-country to sit in court across from their scammer (assuming they can be found to be summoned and aren't a minor). This is a heavy topic, and something we truly need a solution for or it will only get worse. I'm personally curious if this is a concern for both big breeders and the little guys, or the parasites only hit the small-timers because it is easier to fly under the radar.

How do these marketplaces and selling sites deal with scammers when caught? Are they IP banned, or allowed to continue posting as long as they pay? How do we deal with these scammers as a community? Sure, we can make boi's and hope people find them, but all it takes is a name change and the person is right back at it. It ruins it for us honest people starting out, for the small-timers who are already established and constantly wondering, "is this guy/girl for real, or are they going to try and pull one over on me?" It's not the way this hobby is meant to be, and I honestly can't think of many other businesses where scamming is so easily achieved and there is no repercussion. This is an issue that affects the entire community and I'd be interested to hear what the community feels can be done for more checks and balances and to work towards a better solution going forward.


For me, one way is references. If you sell / buy and do well, get a rating or reference. The next time you do business, you have a reference, someone who will vouch for you. If you have no reference, then its something for the other party doing business with you to consider.

Another solution is permanent IP ban's of people scamming or performing poor business on these selling sites like the Reptile Report Marketplace, Kingsnake, and Fauna. If you're worried about loss of money from the vouchers purchased, include in the T&C's that if you commit an unethical offense, you will be banned and refund will not be made.

Include breeder ratings on these marketplace/auction sites. Allow users to provide feedback, and maybe even require purchasees to register for them to get scored as well by the seller.

Are these things inconvenient, yes. But its these types of "tools" that allow other websites like Amazon, Ebay, etc. to operate without falling as heavily to scams and the low-lifes that linger over the web with the intent of cheapening and stealing what we work hard for. Personally, I'm willing to deal with the inconvenience of the added work if it means I can trust my source when I go to either buy or sell an animal.


Thanks for your time and I look forward to your response(s) and hope this spurs a discussion that produces some solution. Again, really would like to hear the input of a big name, but the likelihood of them seeing this post is probably slim to none, let alone getting a response. Everyone's opinion counts here, and I think good can come of this discussion, but first we must take a small step in that right direction. Just like with USARK, if you start a movement it gains ground and soon becomes a force to be reckoned with. This issue affects everyone, from the first time purchased to the experienced breeder. As this industry continues to flourish (and it will), so too will the dregs of society flock to it for fast, easy money. Whether you've been bit already, or the "opportunity" is biding its time, it could very well happen to you or a friend.

All the best.

Z