Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[Egapal]

Egapal, i had what i thought was a great debate to respond with, but i'll just shorten it to that I think f/t can be re-frozen as many times as it takes, as long as there is no introduced bacteria that is resilient to freezing....or there is no freezer burn.

If you believe this strongly then I would suggest you try this experiment. Buy two steaks. Freeze them both. Thaw one and then leave it out on the counter for a few hours then refreeze it. Repeat this more than twice and then thaw them both cook them. Let me know if you can taste a difference. The cells walls rupture when ice crystals form. If you do this more than a few times it really changes what you are eating.

That is also why i think it's weird people insist they have to throw out food, if the snake doesn't eat it the first try. F/T are way cheaper than live, at least for me. In a year, i think i've thrown out two mice because they became too rank.

You are lucky. Did you read my story about my snake that did not eat for 9 months. I am glad you brought up that frozen is cheaper. I don't care about that. I care about minimizing the suffering and death that I cause. I have seen how some of these big places raise their rodents and I am much happier with the quality of life my rodents have.

In the wild, BPs will eat corpses of rodents, etc. They do that at my house too...one of my dumeril's won't even take food unless it's left in her cage for a few hours. The previous owner said she was afraid of live, so i haven't tried....which if i did, i would probably still go for a bop on the head first!

BP's also starve to death in the wild, get eaten by birds of prey and contract various parasites from the corpses they eat in the wild. I am not at all convinced by the "Well in the wild" argument. So I will just ignore this part.

Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

Please explain to me how your snake is any different from one caught in the wild. There is no selection for behavior going on that I can see in the BP trade. So I say again you are not reading that critically. The part about being accustomed to human provision and control has to be as a result of human selective breeding over time. Compare a dog to a wolf, and likewise I can provide a long list of domestic animals that look and act nothing like their wild ancestors. Conversely people can and do pass off wild BP as captive bred all the time.

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control..

No I don't agree at all and it is just your opinion. You first premise is false and so your entire argument is flawed. People do not, did not, and from what I can tell won't select BP from the wild that are more docile. I have read about and watched videos of BP being captured in the wild. I have never seen any selection for temperament and I have not heard anyone suggesting that their is such selection.

..even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually
He's actually the most violent dude i have besides my carpet python.
His name is "Bitey" LOL
He snatches his food, and will protect it (not just look over it for a good place to start eating), and he will CHARGE you, and try to chase you away if you come near. That's funny too, but i really try to stay away from him when he's eating *lol* My other 3 bps, and my other many snakes act nothing like this.
But the brat still waits for his human go give him water!
That is, to me, a clear sign of domestication, even at a small level.

All you have demonstrated with your story is an ability to learn patterns. This is not a sign of domestication. A tiger in a zoo might learn when feeding time is, its not domesticated. A gorilla can be taught sign language. Still not domesticated. If you think that your snake waiting for water is a sign of domestication then you don't understand what domestication is.

Anyway, i don't think i can change anyone's opinion. I don't really like the idea of feeding live...but i understand the need in CERTAIN cases. As for people with like 60 snakes, i feel it's just lazy. No offense, but really...we cage them, provide for them, and they could not survive in captivity without us...so why wouldn't we at least WATCH to make sure they are not hurt? Of course their scales provide protection...that's how they were designed. They are more durable than our skin...which is OUR protection..but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable or like armor or something. Jeez, These are two of my rescue snakes.

Ok what you are doing here is called constructing a straw man. Of course they can't survive in captivity without us. Mice will virtually never climb into a tank that a snake can't get out of. The prevailing wisdom on this forum is that if you feed live you watch the feeding. You will see advice all over this forum saying you should not feed live unattended. In fact their scales are like armor. We as humans designed armor to mimic reptiles scales. No one said they were invulnerable.

Jasper has a huge scar along his underside from the kick of a rabbit...not to mention numerous bite marks and messed up scales from rats.

No respected member of this forum would feed a rabbit capable of doing that to their BP. This is not a picture of what happens when you feed live.

Ribs (so called because he was 1.5lbs at 4 feet in length and almost dead from dehydration and starvation) has a scarred over nostril...though you can't see it very well here, though you can see the tail scar.

Dehydration and starvation are not from feeding live. The scars are sad but once again if they came from feeding live its certainly not indicative of all keepers.

Just really unnecessary. If we don't have the time to watch our animals and make sure they are safe and not getting "Blemmishes" then we just shouldn't own the animal. If we have so many we can't make the time? Same thing.

These may be extreme cases...though I have seen and heard of worse...but WHY risk it? Why? Because it's easier for us, or we're lazy? *snort* that's just wrong.

I am fine with live if you beat it on the head, and WATCH your snake. Whatever is cheaper for you, fine, but i cringe when i hear all these people saying they have double figure #'s of snakes and they just throw food in there.

You are upset with your idea of feeding live. It doesn't match the reality of most snake keepers. I could give you thousands of pictures of people who have died horribly in car accidents. Non of that is a solid argument against driving. Crossing the road can go horribly wrong too but you aren't a bad parent for letting your kids do it. Sure if you let them cross at a young age without supervisions but you would have to witness that to condemn that person. You can't just judge people without knowing the details. Its just not that simple.