Which morphs are stabalizing, which are dropping?

[Slim]

I still believe that there are other buyers out there, like myself, who are willing to pay more for superior quality. Yes, there will be breeders who will breed quantity to fill the niche of the pet stores and the lower quality animals (in looks) and then there will be some of us who wish to only produce the very best examples of each morph they work with through selective breeding - and I do believe that there are buyers for that niche as well.

Thank you, Robin. This is exactly what I was trying to say with my post, but you put it much better than I did.

Personaly, I don't breed. I'm a collector, and all my guys are part of the family. Each time I get ready to add an new morph to our collection, I look for the best example of that morph avaliable. So far, I haven't had to look too much further than my favorite breeder (Big love, Adam), but even within his avaliable BPs, I look for the best he has ready at that time. And, I am alway willing to pay extra in order to get high quality.

[Brandon Osborne]

Really, ok, i'll take 2.

These are posted prices. Just look and you will find them.

[Jyson]

If I produce lemon pastels as nice as the ones I did last year, I will be pricing them higher than the price for "drab" pastels. If they don't sell - I don't mind at all - I'll keep 'em!

Robin, I would buy a pastel from you at any price you think is fair for that animal. Great person, great snake keeper, with beautiful animals, a transaction with a snake breeder that has those qualities is priceless to me.

Which is also my point. When it boils down to it, I'ld rather pay for a 1500 "grade A" pastel, or 700 "grade A" cinnamon, then go and pay for a 150 spider or 100 pastel. Reasons why, because they are not a random impulse, or some project that I am racing to achieve.
They are pets, first and for most that I will be investing in.
Pets that I will be keeping for 20+ years, and they will also be producing babies that I will keep as well, so with that in mind I want high quality animals that will look nice, and produce beautiful babies that will grow into beautiful and stunning examples of whatever morph they are.

Also, I believe that normals are grossly underrated too. Beautiful normals can have just as much potential as most morphs, and (depending on the quality) can be a huge factor in selective breeding. And shouldn't be sold at the lowest price that you can think of, but at a price you think is appriopriate for the specific animal.

Along with that, imho the Kingsnake market is not the entire snake market. Not all breeders post their animals for sale up there, so in my opinion animals for sale on there (especially the lowest priced ones you can find) are not examples that indicates the official price range of morphs, but rather what price range those breeders are willing to go down to.

[Slim]

imho the Kingsnake market is not the entire snake market.

IMHO the Kingsnake market is the worst of the BP market. In a months time, I might see one snake I'd buy, from one person I would trust. Other than that, not so much. Too many Big Daddys and flippers on there for my taste.

[Brandon Osborne]

Which is also my point. When it boils down to it, I'ld rather pay for a 1500 "grade A" pastel, or 700 "grade A" cinnamon, then go and pay for a 150 spider or 100 pastel. Reasons why, because they are not a random impulse, or some project that I am racing to achieve.

I totally agree. But this is not the thought of majority of the people buying. I'm picky about everything I have in my collection. I don't buy from a name just because of the name. I know some people do. I buy the best looking animal, for the amount I think is appropriate.

They are pets, first and for most that I will be investing in.
Pets that I will be keeping for 20+ years, and they will also be producing babies that I will keep as well, so with that in mind I want high quality animals that will look nice, and produce beautiful babies that will grow into beautiful and stunning examples of whatever morph they are.

Also agreed. I think anyone serious about their animals would feel the same way. I have animals in my collection that are pushing 15 years now. I had a kingsnake die this past season that was 15 years old. I raised her from a hatchling, have some of her kids and even great grand kids. Same goes with some of my chondros. I have a pair of chondros that are turning 14 this year. I have several generations of their kids and a couple of grand kids.

Also, I believe that normals are grossly underrated too. Beautiful normals can have just as much potential as most morphs, and (depending on the quality) can be a huge factor in selective breeding. And shouldn't be sold at the lowest price that you can think of, but at a price you think is appriopriate for the specific animal.

This is one that is hard to grasp. Although I think normals should be held at a higher value than they are, IMHO, it is impossible for me to compete with imports. When I go to a show and have my normal spider/pastel/cinny sibs for $50, do you think people are going to pay attention when they can get an import for $10-20? The reality is, NO. They don't care where it came from. They want the cheapest PET they can find. Now, sometimes these people come back a few months later because their bargain animal didn't do so well.....even then, when this happens most often they move to a different animal all together. I would love to sell my normals, but it just doesn't happen.....especially for $50. Why wouldn't someone just buy a het albino for that price?....that is what they are selling for. Normal or het albino for $50?....which would you buy?

Along with that, imho the Kingsnake market is not the entire snake market. Not all breeders post their animals for sale up there, so in my opinion animals for sale on there (especially the lowest priced ones you can find) are not examples that indicates the official price range of morphs, but rather what price range those breeders are willing to go down to.

Again, I somewhat agree with this, but not all.....there is more to it. KS is not the entire market, but it does have THE MOST TRAFFIC of any classified site on the internet. The biggest and most well-known breeders advertise there. I will disagree with you on the price range. KS definitely dictates the official price range of the market. It's the first place most people look when window shopping. As I said in previous post, there are prices even lower than the lowest on KS often found at shows. Sometimes they are higher. It depends on the seller and the show.

This is an ever-growing trend. More people are selling their collections because of declining prices. Will this make prices go up?....probably not. It has happened with just about every snake I can think of. It will take a very large portion of Ball python breeders, selling their collections, to put prices to a sustainable level. I saw it with Burms, Jungle Carpets, Brazilian Rainbows, etc. They reach a point where breeder think they aren't making enough money and they sell off. When the huge selloff happens, potential buyers begin rethinking their plan of buying those animals. It has taken Jungles 10 years to get back to prices they are selling for now......same with Brazilian Rainbows. More people are working with Balls than there were with either of those. It will take much longer for prices to level, if they ever do. Again, I'm not trying to get anyone worked up. I'm just being realistic. If you guys can sell your normals for $50, that is great. Don't count on it for every animal. I've sold a couple for $400+. I used to get annoyed about people speculating market prices, but it's just too easy to see these days. It will not get any better in the near future.

I'll ask again, what is a fair price for a Pewter 100% het Pied male? I have the only ones for sale and they are all in the 400 gram range.

[nevohraalnavnoj]

People need to stop examining the price and be more interested in the quality of the animal....There are alot of jobbers out there buying large lots from larger breeders at a reduced cost and just marking the snakes up very little...I feel that there are just to many people producing ball pythons for the price trend to stop....Maybe with the price drop some will be discouraged and not invest into them now....I feel its no longer about the single mutation its all about the 3,4,5 and so on morphs rolled up into one snake...
Just my 2 cents..
Kevin Stoltz

X2

As Marc Bailey said on his Reptile Radio, the doomsayers have been out there since day one....and he seems to do just fine!

JonV

[Brandon Osborne]

IMHO the Kingsnake market is the worst of the BP market. In a months time, I might see one snake I'd buy, from one person I would trust. Other than that, not so much. Too many Big Daddys and flippers on there for my taste.

Some of the biggest and most well respected breeders advertise on KS. KS is the reality of the market. I do agree with you on the Big Daddys and flippers though. These are the people that really kill the market.....but most flippers get their stuff dirt cheap from other breeders. If you see a flipper selling spiders for $175, how much do you think they paid for them?....probably no more than $100.

[iurast]

Without reading every post here...this is my opinion:

The Problem is that too many people are going for the quantity and not for the quality. Too many people are searching the net for the lowest priced Pastel. But who is really searching for the best looking? I think it is what it is because 75% are only in this game because of the money they try to get out of it. Producing Ball Pythons. Thats what its all about. There should be more love for this snakes and more eyes for the beauties among the morphs. It is all about having pastels, fires, mojos, lav`s, lessers and butters, but it should be more about having beautiful and interesting animals. I`m searching for the best looking snakes not the cheapest. I hope that there will be a change in some time...selective breeding and not power feeding! ( Its not about the rhyme )

Best wishes from Germany, Sito

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I know I said I wouldn't chime in again, but I just can't help myself.

#1) Brandon... This is NOT the advertising section. So please stop trying to push your snakes in this thread.

#2) How you can consider kingsnake to dictate the market prices is beyond me. Is it the largest online site? Yep. HOWEVER, online sales represent probably the smallest % of reptile purchases! There are hundreds of snakes sold at pet shops for every one sold online. Just like anything else, online classified prices do not dictate retail prices.

#3) You have no idea who your talking to when it comes to sales, negotiations, and pricing. Yes there will always be bulk deals, and animals sold for exceptionally low prices despite the going rate because of the particular situation. That is not what this thread is about. We are talking about market prices... Averages.... The bottom lines that effect the majority of the people the majority of the time.

#4)At the last show I attended, I had the opportunity to purchase a male spider for $125. That does NOT mean that spiders are going for $125. The going price is still $250 -$300 for an average example of the morph.

#5) you choosing to give your normals away does not change the fact that the going rate for a normal hatchling is still around $50. Can they be found in online clasifieds or at a show for less? YEP. Does that mean that someone paying $50 at a petshop is getting ripped off? No. It is the going price.

[Brandon Osborne]

I know I said I wouldn't chime in again, but I just can't help myself.

#1) Brandon... This is NOT the advertising section. So please stop trying to push your snakes in this thread... It is getting really old.

#2) How you can consider kingsnake to dictate the market prices is beyond me. Is it the largest online site? Yep. HOWEVER, online sales represent probably the smallest % of reptile purchases! There are hundreds of snakes sold at pet shops for every one sold online. Just like anything else, online classified prices do not dictate retail prices.

#3) You have no idea who your talking to when it comes to sales, negotiations, and pricing. Yes there will always be bulk deals, and animals sold for exceptionally low prices despite the going rate because of the particular situation. That is not what this thread is about. We are talking about market prices... Averages.... The bottom lines that effect the majority of the people the majority of the time.

#4)At the last show I attended, I had the opportunity to purchase a male spider for $125. That does NOT mean that spiders are going for $125. The going price is still $250 -$300 for an average example of the morph.

#5) you choosing to give your normals away does not change the fact that the going rate for a normal hatchling is still around $50. Can they be found in online clasifieds or at a show for less? YEP. Does that mean that someone paying $50 at a petshop is getting ripped off? No. It is the going price.

Mikey, if I was advertising my animals I would have done so in the classifieds. I'm not trying to sell them here. All I asked for was an appropriate market value. Avoid the question if you want....that is all it was.

If you think there are hundreds of animals sold a pet shops for every one sold on the internet you are fooling yourself. Yes I sell to pet shops, but 99% of my business has been from internet sales for the last 10 years.....period.

Yes I do know what I am talking about. I'm not the only one that is seeing it. I guess my eyes are just open. If you are paying $250-300 for spiders you are throwing your money away. What is advertised and what they are sold for are two different things. You are right, classified prices are not the same as retail prices. Retail prices are usually 50% higher because they are purchased at internet prices. Cheap animals are not just availabe in bulk deals.

I guess we are not in the same market. As I said, my market is everywhere. I see prices all over the map, all the time. These are MARKET PRICES. The market will always dictate prices, not the seller. If animals are not selling at $250, the market price is not $250. Show me some normal hatchlings for $50 with no added genetics. Those are retail prices, not market prices. Market price and pet shop price are not the same. So yes, if you own a pet shop and you sell normals, then you can get $50 for them. Most ask $80-100. Can I sell them for that? The answer is plain and simple.....NO.

Again, I'll stand by that bet if you care to take it. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I was just supplying my opinion by answering the original question.

Peace