WC Gravids?

[janeothejungle]

The thing is, for the amount of demand the Ball Python industry is carrying, we don't captively breed enough of them to answer the populace demand.

Really? Or is it that there is not enough organization among breeders who do produce quite a supply of norms to get them to the appropriate market? I have been acquiring bps for quite a few years and haven't picked up any imports. Hmm. Who exactly is that demand? Or is the demand created by the middlemen in importation?

This has all been covered in a previous thread from a week or so ago.

It has, and almost completely one sided. I regret now, not jumping into that one.

Plus, importing helps regulate the Ball Python populations in Africa.

That is complete and utter BS. Show me one legitimate scientific reference that supports this. What you will find is a bunch of 'reports' by the various african governments submitted for CITES. CITES, for those not in the know, is a gentlemans agreement between governments, primarily leaving responsibility for regulation of each country to the country's government.

If we didn't import them for pets, they'd still be caught and sold for their skins or meat.

I'm getting really tired of hearing this as an excuse to keep enabling importation. If we didn't take 'em, someone else would. There is nothing to support this claim either, and I, for one, have a hard time seeing export at the current numbers if a large market suddenly dried up. Maybe it would go on for a year or two at best, but ultimately not at the current trend.

But I digress. We import to answer the demand on the Ball Python industry, as well to bring in new blood so we lessen the inbreeding mishaps, and also for all those sexy morphs that every single one of us drools over.

You think those sexy new morphs are just slithering around in the wild over there? No, they are the result of a bunch of africans selectively breeding for things that might be of interest to the greedy gringos. As to 'new blood'. Stop for a minute and think about how many years we have been importing bps. If we closed all borders today to imports, do you honestly think our genetic pool would be inbred in no time flat? There is tons of new blood floating around, we mostly call them dinkers, and quite a few people are too lazy to go to the trouble of proving them out. What us, work? Ah let the africans do that.

I'm not trying to attack you personally, Cie, but I am sick of all the BS misinformation floating around and perpetuated by (gasp) the middlemen and importers.

Done ranting now.

~Kat

[J.Vandegrift]

I would not waste my money on a normal WC gravid but I would consider a WC gravid morph. I don't really have a problem with bringing in WC gravids. They are either going to send them here before they lay or keep them in Africa and wait for them to lay before taking the eggs. WC snakes are just part of the hobby. As long as the wild population stays stable I don't have a huge issue with it. I think people are wasting their time with normal WC's with as cheap as nice CB breeder females can be found for now, but I am not morally against it. I only own one WC snake (sold to me as CB) and it's a pain to feed. Only takes soft furs and that was after a 14 month initial fast. Will probably never give me a clutch.

[josh@outbackreps]

[QUOTE=janeothejungle

"You think those sexy new morphs are just slithering around in the wild over there? No, they are the result of a bunch of africans selectively breeding for things that might be of interest to the greedy gringos."

~Kat[/QUOTE]

I am not going to get wrapped up in this thread as we have already posted facts not opinions about this subject, but the above quote is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Noah is the ONLY African breeding ball morphs for the morph market. He has freedom breeder racks set up with animals we can only dream about.

The rest of the morphs that are exported are wild caught or c.h from the bush. We deal with 2-3 different importers who have been /go to Africa and meet the trappers and collectors to make their export connections. Any one who has been there or knows facts about the African market will tell you the same. Morphs are generally collected in locality areas, the mutant gene shows up in a area and the animals do not travel far like other species like boas do, so they breed among themselves, once this locality are of morphs is found that is where the collectors collect those morphs. Lavender albinos have all been collected in one small area/locality in Benin , pieds from Ghana , albino's, yellow bellies, ghost, etc are all collected in certain areas/ locality pockets in that country. They are not selectively bred by the Africans, they are bred by nature.

This is not our opinion that we are stating, but actual fact.

[janeothejungle]

I am not going to get wrapped up in this thread as we have already posted facts not opinions about this subject, but the above quote is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Noah is the ONLY African breeding ball morphs for the morph market. He has freedom breeder racks set up with animals we can only dream about.

The rest of the morphs that are exported are wild caught or c.h from the bush. We deal with 2-3 different importers who have been /go to Africa and meet the trappers and collectors to make their export connections. Any one who has been there or knows facts about the African market will tell you the same. Morphs are generally collected in locality areas, the mutant gene shows up in a area and the animals do not travel far like other species like boas do, so they breed among themselves, once this locality are of morphs is found that is where the collectors collect those morphs. Lavender albinos have all been collected in one small area/locality in Benin , pieds from Ghana , albino's, yellow bellies, ghost, etc are all collected in certain areas/ locality pockets in that country. They are not selectively bred by the Africans, they are bred by nature.

This is not our opinion that we are stating, but actual fact.

BS. Actual fact? You have a straight face when you write that? Cite me one piece of firsthand literature from a party not profiting from importation. You can't. The only available lit is by Gorzula and I'd be happy to shred his "scientific" opinion piece by piece if you'd like. It's not science. And there is an area of Benin where lavender albinos are just hanging out in the bush? Riiiiiiight. No again. The gene pool for that morph originates in that area, no doubt. I'll even grant you that on special occasions a baby with an odd pheno is found in the wild before being shredded by predators that would naturally pick it off. But the animals imported here have been artificially selected for our markets. The way you guys (and here I refer to those of you who profit so industriously from importation) tell it, Africa is just covered with great varying phenotypes slithering around the bush, just waiting to be discovered. A multitude of pattern and form for the taking. Have you even been to Africa yourself? You defend your business based on the profit it makes you and the stories you hear from 2nd and 3rd party sources. I've spent time over there doing fieldwork and I think you would be surprised at the origins of the industry you defend so hotly.

~Kat

[jglass38]

BS. Actual fact? You have a straight face when you write that? Cite me one piece of firsthand literature from a party not profiting from importation. You can't. The only available lit is by Gorzula and I'd be happy to shred his "scientific" opinion piece by piece if you'd like. It's not science. And there is an area of Benin where lavender albinos are just hanging out in the bush? Riiiiiiight. No again. The gene pool for that morph originates in that area, no doubt. I'll even grant you that on special occasions a baby with an odd pheno is found in the wild before being shredded by predators that would naturally pick it off. But the animals imported here have been artificially selected for our markets. The way you guys (and here I refer to those of you who profit so industriously from importation) tell it, Africa is just covered with great varying phenotypes slithering around the bush, just waiting to be discovered. A multitude of pattern and form for the taking. Have you even been to Africa yourself? You defend your business based on the profit it makes you and the stories you hear from 2nd and 3rd party sources. I've spent time over there doing fieldwork and I think you would be surprised at the origins of the industry you defend so hotly.

~Kat

I love when knowledge gets dropped! Kat, you rock!

[AaronP]

I think it's wrong, period.

[Wild Bill]

BS. Actual fact? You have a straight face when you write that? Cite me one piece of firsthand literature from a party not profiting from importation. You can't. The only available lit is by Gorzula and I'd be happy to shred his "scientific" opinion piece by piece if you'd like. It's not science. And there is an area of Benin where lavender albinos are just hanging out in the bush? Riiiiiiight. No again. The gene pool for that morph originates in that area, no doubt. I'll even grant you that on special occasions a baby with an odd pheno is found in the wild before being shredded by predators that would naturally pick it off. But the animals imported here have been artificially selected for our markets. The way you guys (and here I refer to those of you who profit so industriously from importation) tell it, Africa is just covered with great varying phenotypes slithering around the bush, just waiting to be discovered. A multitude of pattern and form for the taking. Have you even been to Africa yourself? You defend your business based on the profit it makes you and the stories you hear from 2nd and 3rd party sources. I've spent time over there doing fieldwork and I think you would be surprised at the origins of the industry you defend so hotly.

~Kat

You freakin ROCK!!!!

[SGExotics]

I am not going to get wrapped up in this thread as we have already posted facts not opinions about this subject, but the above quote is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Noah is the ONLY African breeding ball morphs for the morph market. He has freedom breeder racks set up with animals we can only dream about.

The rest of the morphs that are exported are wild caught or c.h from the bush. We deal with 2-3 different importers who have been /go to Africa and meet the trappers and collectors to make their export connections. Any one who has been there or knows facts about the African market will tell you the same. Morphs are generally collected in locality areas, the mutant gene shows up in a area and the animals do not travel far like other species like boas do, so they breed among themselves, once this locality are of morphs is found that is where the collectors collect those morphs. Lavender albinos have all been collected in one small area/locality in Benin , pieds from Ghana , albino's, yellow bellies, ghost, etc are all collected in certain areas/ locality pockets in that country. They are not selectively bred by the Africans, they are bred by nature.

This is not our opinion that we are stating, but actual fact.

Albinos found in the wild? I thought that because they lack the pigment in their skin, that either the sun will shribble them up or a predator will spot them easily, and kill them...

[AaronP]

Albinos found in the wild? I thought that because they lack the pigment in their skin, that either the sun will shribble them up or a predator will spot them easily, and kill them...

Please tell me you're joking.

[Tosha_Mc]

From what I recall it is (was?) illegal to import gravid females -- does anyone know if this has changed?