A Few Questions

[Mischke]

Hello,

I’m new to the forum, and have been studying up on ball python morphs and genetics for a few days. I just had a few questions I was hoping to get answered.

The first question is what are hidden genes? I’ve heard about them, but have not really heard about what combinations that unlock them, and why they are believe to happen. Can somebody please explain a few of the hidden genes?

Also, when I see het VPI, I think this means het VPI Axanthic. Is this correct, or am I completely off?

Thanks, in advance.

[RandyRemington]

The only thing I remember hearing referred to as "hidden" is an odd mutation that RDR got with his original platy daddy. The odd part is that the mutation apparently looks normal both as a heterozygous paired with a normal copy of the same gene and even in the homozygous hidden mutant form. However, when this "hidden" mutation is paired with either the lesser or butter mutation (which appears to be a mutation or mutations of the same gene) it creates the platy or butter daddy respectively (there is also the 44 combo with phantom).

Think of hidden as a mutation that by it's self is so subtle you can't see it but that makes great combos with other mutations of the same gene. You mainly need to just know when it's there based on the parentage or breeding results of the animal its self. When a platy is bred to a normal all the babies either get the lesser mutation or the hidden (but not both or neither) so you know all the normal looking ones have the hidden. RDR produced the first for sure homozygous hidden a year or two ago as a normal looking baby from platy X platy although there are surely others from RDR's many het hidden X het hidden breedings early on but apparently the only way to tell if those animals are completely normal, het hidden, or homozygous hidden would be to breed them to a lesser or homozygous lesser and see if platy comes out. Being an allele of lesser also means that lesser X lesser can never produce platy.

I know that VPI has their own lines of several morphs but I would assume Axanthic from just “het VPI” but best to ask before buying just to be sure.

[Doxster]

I don't know if I'm spot on with this, it's my personal opinion.

There are alot more "odd balls" produced than than the platty daddy/lesser gene that are suspected to have a hidden gene. I can't be arsed to go get my bible (The Complete Ball Python) and look them all up but they are there.

As I see it you can view hidden genes in two ways.

1. The hidden gene is dormant until "unlocked". As the knowledge about these genes are still very much a mystery no one really knows how to unlock them, it just happens. And when you finally hit that odd ball that you just know is genetic there is still the mystery regarding how to prove it genetic. Alot of breeding is needed to find out I guess.

2. (this is mainly for platty/lessers) The platty gene seems to be co-dom/dom with a touch of simple recessiveness for the hidden gene. I don't know if there are other morphs out there with this genetically composition but that's the easiest way I would describe the platty.

I don't know if this helped you at all, a bit tired, hope it stretched out some of the question marks though.

[Mischke]

Okay, when I first heard hidden gene, I thought a certain combination of morphs unlocked a certain look. I’m more of a leopard gecko guy, and there is a certain trait called the eclipse eye, that acts simple recessive, but can be made from breeding certain pairs of geckos together, even without the being from that line. But, basically what is meant as a hidden gene, is just a recessive gene that’s expected to be there?

[RandyRemington]

I don't believe there is anything recessive involved with platy daddy. The final proof came a couple years ago when butter daddy was produced without inbreeding. A poster using the name Hahaman from Taiwan came up with the allele theory that has explained/predicted all the reported breedings since quite a few years ago. It's unfortunate that there is still so much confusion around platy.

[Mischke]

A poster using the name Hahaman from Taiwan came up with the allele theory that has explained/predicted all the reported breedings since quite a few years ago. It's unfortunate that there is still so much confusion around platy.

Do you have a link to that post? I cannot find the name Hahaman on the members list.

[Doxster]

I don't believe there is anything recessive involved with platy daddy. The final proof came a couple years ago when butter daddy was produced without inbreeding. A poster using the name Hahaman from Taiwan came up with the allele theory that has explained/predicted all the reported breedings since quite a few years ago. It's unfortunate that there is still so much confusion around platy.

That's very interesting. I thought the platty daddy looks came from a lesser (platty daddy offspring) X original platty. Are there any pics of this butter daddy around?

[RandyRemington]

I don't remember which forum Hahaman posted on (but thought it was this one) and it was maybe as far back as 5 years ago.

Any lesser X platy could get you platy (25% chance per egg). The platy babies in this breeding would have to get the lesser version of the gene from the lesser only parent and the hidden version of the gene from the platy parent.

Platy could also be produced by lesser X hidden (25% chance per egg, happened unexpectedly to two people this summer with unknown hiddens) or even platy X platy (50% chance per egg). There are several other ways but all would have to have at least one lesser version of the gene in one parent and at least one hidden version in the other parent. Because they are alleles the same parent couldn’t pass both versions of the gene to a particular offspring even if that parent was a platy and had both. The only way to produce 100% platy would be homozygous lesser X homozygous hidden.