Feeding live rats (somewhat gruesome story beware plz)

[SoCaliSon]

Don't you think that keeping those animals CAPTIVE is for your own convenience too or it is for the snake's convenience?

I will stand by what I said each owner should feed what works and what is convenient for them without being judged by either side.

I am not oposed to keeping animals in captivity... Some people find it ethically wrong, and I can understand where they are coming from. But personally I believe that on the hobbyist level, and not scientific research, if you can do like I said above... "First and foremost we should put all "keeper convenience" aside here and aim at creating a stable, healthy environment for the snake, where they can live and practice natural behaviors as if they were on their own in the wild". If you can strive for this, then it is obvious that you have the best interest of the animal in mind. I believe we are already taking enough from the animal by keeping them captive, we need to focus on not taking too much from them; a line needs to be drawn. To me, conditioning a born predator to eat frozen food is past that line. Again, I believe the goal of this hobby should not be to cram as many snakes into your place as you could possibly fit, condition them to eat in a way that is convenient for you, then crossing and inbreeding until we get a morph that looks appealing to us. I am not opposed to morph breeding, but I think the hobby focuses to much on it... oh well... that is the nature of the market... But we need to remember what herping is all about...To provide an environment where the animal can live it's life and behave in the way nature intended them to, for us to observe and learn from.

We cannot decide how or what our animals think about what we feed them, but if my snakes all "hunt" their FT rat on tongs, strike, constrict and kill the already dead animal just like they would have in the wild, then how are we stripping them of the stimulation and behaviors when they react the same as if they were in the wild or killing a live rat?

I understand your point... And I won't spend forever going on about the nutritional value that is lacking in frozen that is there in live, like the oxygenation level in the blood, brain juices and marrow. Our frozen food has preservatives in place to make sure to keep all the good stuff in there during the frozen period, FT rats have nothing.

I do know that a lot of snakes will happily pounce FT food, I will not argue that...But I do I have a personal experience that applies here.
I worked with a Boa a couple years back that was brought to a shop I know, as the owner could no longer care for it. This Boa had been fed on FT it's whole life (around 4 years is what I was told.) So when I started working with the snake I continued with what it had been raised on, but after the 3rd feeding, and I was yet to see a strike or constriction, I started to realize that this snake had lost touch with it's strike and contrict instinct. We normally think of instincts as behaviors that are embeded that can't be broken, but given an environment where killing it's prey wasn't necesarry for years, it lost touch with this behavior. Offered a live moving rat, the snake coiled into the corner in fear. I know this is not the case all the time, and may be a very isolated instance caused by the husbandry issues said snake had been exposed to. I worked with the snake for 2 months before finding him a great home, but over 8 feedings I never once saw a stike or constriction from this 6 foot snake. Not saying that all snakes will behave this way, but definately worth thinking about.

[hogboy]

For what its worth all of my Balls constrict f/t as much as any live i've ever seen.
Even the Corns will constrict for ages before chowing down.
As for hognoses, they'll eat anything backwards/frontwards/sideways etc etc

[Melevarin]

I fed my BP his first f/t last Friday 'cause he's been absolutely horrible at striking...he'd miss almost every time on his first strike *there is no stuck shed on his eyes*...I'd be too worried for his safety when he needs to start eating rats...I think that as long as the snake is healthy it doesn't really matter...oh...and he acted as if the mouse were alive so I don't think they really care either...

[hogboy]

I fed my BP his first f/t last Friday 'cause he's been absolutely horrible at striking...he'd miss almost every time on his first strike *there is no stuck shed on his eyes*...I'd be too worried for his safety when he needs to start eating rats...I think that as long as the snake is healthy it doesn't really matter...oh...and he acted as if the mouse were alive so I don't think they really care either...

Have you tried warming the rat in water, it makes a HUGE difference.
Without the heat , they can't 'see' it , add a little warmth and they can ?

[littleindiangirl]

I worked with a Boa a couple years back that was brought to a shop I know, as the owner could no longer care for it. This Boa had been fed on FT it's whole life (around 4 years is what I was told.) So when I started working with the snake I continued with what it had been raised on, but after the 3rd feeding, and I was yet to see a strike or constriction, I started to realize that this snake had lost touch with it's strike and contrict instinct. We normally think of instincts as behaviors that are embeded that can't be broken, but given an environment where killing it's prey wasn't necesarry for years, it lost touch with this behavior. Offered a live moving rat, the snake coiled into the corner in fear. I worked with the snake for 2 months before finding him a great home, but over 8 feedings I never once saw a stike or constriction from this 6 foot snake. Not saying that all snakes will behave this way, but definately worth thinking about.

I'm not in any way discrediting or mocking your personal experience, however I strongly believe with time and proper techniques applied, the snake would have started taking live again.

[hogboy]

Heres a couple of pics of my Enchi and Pinstripe
'Killing' some f/t
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/...fcddaa6a_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/...646e88cd_b.jpg

[greghall]

Cool Pics,as For Eyes Popping Out They Do What They Do Just So The Snake Did,nt Get Bit They Are Very Effective Killers Wonder Why She Did'nt Finish The Job Ive Had A Few Kill & Not Eat For Some Reason?

[SoCaliSon]

I'm not in any way discrediting or mocking your personal experience, however I strongly believe with time and proper techniques applied, the snake would have started taking live again.

I agree that eventually the snake could have been moved over to live again... Definately possible. I did try, with scenting, dancing dead prey, fresh pre killed and stunned to no avail. The only way he would eat it is if you plopped it in his cage and let him be, and even then it could go a good while before the snake decided to ingest it. My point was that in this case this was a natural predator that would only eat dead animals, Therefore an animal that had been broken of it's natural behaviors for the convenience of the keeper, and this is what we should try to avoid.

[dr del]

Hi,

Don't take this the wrong way but I have to ask.

Given these quotes;

It was said a snake can be "conditioned" to eat FT? Your right, it can... But should we be condtioning an animal away from their natural behaviors for our convenince? You are taking an animal who is a natural born predator made to hunt and kill small animals, and conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

I believe we are already taking enough from the animal by keeping them captive, we need to focus on not taking too much from them; a line needs to be drawn. To me, conditioning a born predator to eat frozen food is past that line.

My point was that in this case this was a natural predator that would only eat dead animals, Therefore an animal that had been broken of it's natural behaviors for the convenience of the keeper, and this is what we should try to avoid.

And your signature ( my bolding ) ;

0.1 Ball Python, 1.0 RTB, 2.1 Veiled Chameleon, Unknown amount of Veiled Babies bakin' in the oven, 1.0 Ambilobe/Nosy Be Panther, 0.1 Nosy Be Panther, 0.1 Jacksons Chameleon, 1.1 Bearded Dragons, 1.1 Cats, 0.1 Attention Hungry Girlfriend.

What do you feed your cats?


To the O.P,

It sounds more like your snake was not really in feeding mode or was not prepared to ambush it.

How long did you pre-scent for and what was the snakes behaviour just before you introduced the rat?

I feed exclusively F/T but even then I have noticed I get a much better success rate in feedings if the snake is ready and expecting the prey before I offer it.

I would try again in a week but this time try and use a smaller prey item and extend the pre scenting time and , if the snake shows no reaction or hunting behaviour simply keep the rat till the next feeding day.

This also has the advantage you know the prey animal has had a week of good nutrition etc.


dr del

[frankykeno]

Thats exactly what i was talking about. It is not natural for them to eat dead prey, and i dont think it is fair to keep them captive AND feed them dead prey.

Also i think that is halarious just because i have no compasion for rats. Not because she didnt eat it. I just picture it funny that a rat with no eyes was running around. Maby im just evil

You don't have to have "compassion" for rats, but it wouldn't do any harm to have even a tiny bit of respect for the animal that is the sole reason you have a living snake in your house.

thats why i dont condone f/t feeding. Its hard to get them to do it because it is going aganst their natural instincts, and they just dont like it. Its not really fair

That's far too broad a statement. Lots of snakes eat f/t prey, just like lots of snakes eat live prey and lots of snakes eat p/k prey. If they eat it, they like it...it's just that simple. Do you honestly think some snake is eating f/t prey and thinking "well I really don't like this but I guess I have to eat it".

OMG! Kyros my ball pops their eyeballs too! Its soooo gross! He does it about 3 out of 5 times feeding him. so i would suppose its normal! Sorry for your bad experiance! I hope my feeding day goes ok today * crosses fingers*

No it's not normal. I feed live to almost 50 snakes a week here, from under 100 gram hatchlings to full adult boas and I do not have a bunch of rat eyeballs rolling around the enclosures. In fact in literally 1,000's of live feedings I've never seen it happen. I've seen some minor mouth, eye or ear bleeds from prey but again, very minor not even enough usually to require the snake's enclosure to be cleaned post feeding.

This is where it bothers me a bit.
First and foremost we should put all "keeper convenience" aside here and aim at creating a stable, healthy environment for the snake, where they can live and practice natural behaviors as if they were on their own in the wild. I say it all the time... We will never reproduce nature in a cage, but as long as we are keeping these animals captive, that should be the ultimate goal. Not creating an enviroment that is convenient for us, while giving the snake the bare minimun of wht they need to eat, poop, and shed. That is the main point I am getting at.

It was said a snake can be "conditioned" to eat FT? Your right, it can... But should we be condtioning an animal away from their natural behaviors for our convenince? You are taking an animal who is a natural born predator made to hunt and kill small animals, and conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

No offense meant to anyone, I know not everyone agrees with me... I just thought I would share my views on the subject.

I am an advocate for the animal before the hobby.

Sorry guys, I'll get off my soap box...didn't mean to stray.

I'm a live feeder but I don't fool myself into thinking for one minute I'm creating anything close to what their life is like "on their own in the wild". If I wanted that I'd have to build a termite mound or dig some rat burrows, make sure to import some African ticks to latch on to them, let them go hungry for months, toss in a wandering predator to eat a few of them, etc.

They are captive snakes living captive lives. How you feed is a keeper's decision based on what works for the keeper and their snakes. As long as it's a well thought out decision based on knowledge and research into that particular feeding method and the snake accepts that prey with a strong feeding instinct....it's all good.